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Use of Rev.

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Masalai, please stop inserting that paragraph! Association with literacy or social class is conjecture and has no place in this article. Rev. is his preferred title. It's that simple.

But Masalai is right about Nile (along with Moyes) being unique in their form of address, being ordained ministers and MPs AND preferring the use of both titles ie "Reverend the Hon. (Fred) Frederick John NILE, ED LTh MLC" his parliamentary page. I have changed it to reflect this. Nick 15:00 January 13, 2006.


Looks like Ambi doesn't like my compromise, she thinks titles don't belong in the lead paragraph. Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(biographies)#Honorific_prefixes says that they're optional. (Other pages generally use abbreviated forms, 'The Rev. Hon.' would certainly be less cumbersome than 'The Reverend and Honourable'.) I'm not going to change it again because this is getting silly but I do hope there'll be something factual and NPoV settled upon soon. Nick 05:03, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

PoV

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This entry sounds like it was written by the Greens! Can we please clean up some of the PoV issues in this article?

  • Please sign your comments. Anonymous complaints seldom get much sympathy.
  • Please explain what you think is wrong or POV about the article rather than just slapping a notice on it. Adam 13:11, 23 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

More PoV issues

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User:Davehas12 keeps trying to remove some important incidents in Nile's past and glorify his upbringing, etc. It seems he might be a staffer. Anyway I am going to revert to the previous version, but Davehas12 has been restoring his edits when other editors have reverted, so I'd thought I'd bring it here to the talk page. Teiresias84 07:53, 20 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

He has been blocked for multiple reversions. His user contributuions page makes it clear he is a one-issue editor and is probably a Nile staffer or activist. I have left a message at his talk page explaining his edits are unacceptable. Adam 10:31, 20 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]


Teiresias84 please show all this information I am removing!? I have added an additional 330 words of information. It is you and a number of other editors who have been removing / reverting data. Further, what the hell have I glorified!? There are NO qualitative commentsย !!. I post facts..facts which you, Adam and Timeshift9 have taken some personal dislike to.User:Davehas12 1:31, 24 October 2006 (UTC)


Adam please! First you remove large amounts of data giving no other reason other than expressing your personal dislike of the content / claiming it paints Nile in a too positive light / โ€œfan pageโ€ / โ€œpropagandaโ€, etc. You fail to actually specify if you believe any of that data is in error, and now you engage in trying to discredit my person!? Sad that you have to resort to Ad hominem to justify your untenable position. Please keep your conspiracy theories to yourself..User:Davehas12 1:31, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Draft

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Ok, will everyone who has a problem with this data please state what part they have a problem with and why? Thanks

Fred Nile/draft

I have copyedited the draft. Unless there are any objections I will move it to replace the original Fred Nile page in 24 hours. michael talk 08:09, 24 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The draft says he "volunteered for National Service" in 1952 and became a Major in the infantry. This makes no sense. National Service in the 1950s was in fact conscription. Either he volunteered for the Army or he was conscripted for National Service - which was it? Secondly, how did he get to be a Major without going to Duntroon? Nasho men did not become officers, they became ordinary soldiers or at best NCOs. Even if he was trained as an officer (which I have never heard before), it would have taken a long time in the peacetime Army to become a Major. I suspect he actually joined the CMF and became a part-time or reserves Major - not the same thing at all. Someone should check this. Adam 10:57, 24 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I simply gave it a grammar check and removed any POV extremities. I don't know anything in particular about Nile or about military service so I'm leaving this one up to Dave (or anyone else who's interested). michael talk 12:31, 24 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'm happy with the draft. Timeshift 11:20, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, you're easily pleased then. It was a total dog's breakfast. I have fixed the dreadful grammar and puntuation and Removed the Surplus Capitals. I have also removed the section on his military sevice until someone produces a references for it. Adam 11:41, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Nile Draft

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I have copyedited the draft. Unless there are any objections I will move it to replace the original Fred Nile page in 24 hours. michael talk 08:09, 24 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]


My apologies all for not making the aforementioned deadline. My wife and I lost our baby girl Wednesday last and for obvious reasons, I was indisposed.Davehas12 1:35, 31 October 2006 (UTC)



The draft says he "volunteered for National Service" in 1952 and became a Major in the infantry. This makes no sense. National Service in the 1950s was in fact conscription. Either he volunteered for the Army or he was conscripted for National Service - which was it? Secondly, how did he get to be a Major without going to Duntroon? Nasho men did not become officers, they became ordinary soldiers or at best NCOs. Even if he was trained as an officer (which I have never heard before), it would have taken a long time in the peacetime Army to become a Major. I suspect he actually joined the CMF and became a part-time or reserves Major - not the same thing at all. Someone should check this. Adam 10:57, 24 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know anything in particular about Nile or about military service so I'm leaving this one up to Dave (or anyone else who's interested). michael talk 12:31, 24 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have fixed the dreadful grammar and puntuation and Removed the Surplus Capitals. I have also removed the section on his military sevice until someone produces a references for it. Adam 11:41, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]


Ok, this is what i have pulled from my local library, Nile's book and website (both of the later two are given as references in the actual article.


MILITARY SERVICE

1948 Joined 45th Inf. Bn (MG - CMF) - promoted to Cpl, served 4 years (Hurstville NSW).

1952 Volunteered for full-time National Service, 13th National Service Bn.,(Ingleburn NSW).

1953 Transferred to 45th Inf Bn.(CMF). Promoted to Pl Sgt

1955 45th Inf Bn.(CMF). Promoted P1 Lt.

1956 Transferred to MUR - Officer Training Unit, Melbourne.

1958 Transferred to SUR, Sydney. Promoted to Captain.

1960-72 Transferred to 14th Inf Bde., OC HQ Coy.; Adjutant 3 RNSW Regt (Millers Pt) Advance Officer Training Corp (2 Div HQ). Qualified as Infantry Major. OC., D Coy, 4 RNSW Regt (Merrylands). Awarded Queen's Award - ED. Efficiency Decoration. Awarded CO's Most Efficient Officer and won 4 RNSW Regt Shield for most Efficient Company (Tactics, Weapons, Drill).

1972 Transferred to Army Reserve (Retired List).


I believe the 'National Service' was a temporary service in operation during the Korean War (June 25, 1950 - July 27, 1953)

So the small part about National Service was correct and I have thus re-added it to the draft. I have also removed the reference to 'gay ordaining'. Despite Adam's obvious fixation on Nile's anti-gay politics and possibly believing this to be the case, it is nontheless misleading. According to his press releases (www.frednile.com) it was only one of a myriad of reasons which I'm not sure anyone would care to list ad infinitum.

I have also re-added data on his history with the NSW Parliamentary Standing Committee on Social Issues and his current work ... which for some unknown reason persons here keep removing. Also made several small grammatical and factual amendments / additions.

Davehas12 1:37, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Thanks for the effort in finding Nile's military record. As I expected, it shows that he was in the CMF and not the regular Army. This is an important distinction and should be noted. This is not to denigrate the CMF, but it was a part-time service and not the same thing as being a career soldier. If he had been a regular during this period he would have been dispatched to Korea, Malaya or Vietnam.
  • My recollection is that the gay ordinations issue was the one which caused Nile to leave the Uniting Church, but I am not fixated enough to go and search for a citation on that question. Adam 03:53, 31 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]


No prob.

  • Adam, Nile volunteered for National Service (1952) during the Korean War. He did so because he was only 17 ..and conscription only targeted those 18 and over. It was National Service to fight the Korean War NOT the CMF!
  • Re the fixation..nor am I, but it involved dozens of Bible interpretations. From the nature of jc, god, 'salvation', etc etc ad naseum.

Davehas12 04:05, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

OK, yes I see he was a regular in 1952-53 - so why didn't he go to Korea? But the rest of his career was in the CMF. Personally I don't see that his military career matters at all, but since it has been introduced it needs to be stated accurately. Adam 06:30, 31 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Also, could we axe the "draft" and its talk page and have one article and one discussion about it? Adam 06:37, 31 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The draft was done so there could be a consensus on it (and to avoid revert wars) before it replaced the original page. I'll replace it now. michael talk 06:56, 31 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Michael / Adam. I added a reference to the CMF. Adam, from what i've read Nile didn't go to war due his services in training here at home. When the opportunity came for posting overseas, a cease fire was declared and the war came to an end. Davehas12 06:59, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

OK. I think Dave ought to level with us about the source of his astonishing familiarity with the details of Nile's biography. Adam 07:51, 31 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]


Adam,

Astonishing? Are you now assuming I'm illiterate? I thought it self-evident that I have read the document, how else would I be familiar with itโ€™s content? Further, I am somewhat surprise that it appears you have notโ€ฆ considering your obvious interest in the subject matter.

Level?ย :) If you must know, I have an interest in Political Commentary / Biography, as well as the Environment /Animal Protection, Socio-Economic Reforms / Welfare of the 3rd World, Philosophy, Anthropology, Archaeology, History (particularly Ancient), Football (Soccer), Rugby League and 3D Modelling. Any of which I'd be more than happy to discuss ad naseum with you. Davehas12 09:15, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Added Data

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I re-added a bit about Nile's work with the Aborginal Community. There are several community leaders that could verify this eg. Mike Mundine from the Redfern AHC (http://www.ahc.org.au). I have also made some minor adjustments. I removed the "well" (known) "outspoken" (opposition) as they are both subjective qualitative comments (ie not NPOV). Polls show Nile isn't that well known, and by who's standard does one determine what "outspoken" is? I also added "most" in reference to the media in order to change the meaning slightly. Nile is not "often" quoted on the aforementioned but when he is quoted, it is usually on those aforementioned subjects. Davehas12 02:43, 2 November 2006 (UTC)


Rebecca, please explain how this amendment has "biased the paragraph"? Davehas12 03:11, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Rebecca, please engage in some dialogue here. You keep reiterating your opinion that the amendment is "biased, badly-written trash", but fail to actually specify what it is you are referring to or explaining why you have come to this conclusion. Have you actually read what you have been reverting? Davehas12 02:00, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

While he may work with the aboriginal community, he's certainly not known for that. (He's not known for anything but his opposition to homosexuality, abortion and maybe drugs.) If you think it's significant it will need to go into a different paragraph. If it does, be careful with "mistreatment", sounds rather PoV to me.
Also, I'm changing "outspoken opposition" to "vocal opposition", sounds like a tautology but the word needs emphasis and I think everyone can agree that he's not quiet about it. Nick 03:17, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Nile can't simply be judged and viewed here as how the media portrays him, so you can't dismiss the man as being solely an outspoken mouthpeice for conservative "moral" issues. Give the Aboriginal bit and other social work a mention, just do it appropriately without glorifying the guy. michael talk 03:20, 3 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I simply chopped the sentence out altogether. Of all his stances, singling out that he is "opposed to the Mardi Gras and drug use", with the rewritten wording, implies almost a link between the two. I have no problem with mentioning his advocacy for social work and such, but I also have a problem with trying to tone down anything that could be seen to reflect remotely negatively on him. Rebecca 04:13, 3 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]


Nick I'm fine with your "vocal" change, itโ€™s a fact. It was the "outspoken" comment and it's connotations that werenโ€™t NPOV.

As Michael stated, no matter how much one may personally hate the guy, you can't just railroad him into a stereo typed caricature, it goes against the very principals of wiki. Facts are facts and contrary to how some here wish to keep depicting Nile, he (according to NSW Hansard / www.parliament.nsw.gov.au) actually spends most of his time on issues that have nothing to do with homosexuality.

Re: The Aboriginal data. If you would care to do some research / ask the Aboriginal community, you would note that he is indeed known for his work with the Aboriginal community (esp in Redfern). Evidently he has even been adopted by some tribe up on the Northern NSW coast. I could have written a glowing report about his work with the Aboriginal community, but that was neither my intent nor the purpose of this article / wiki in general. I merely stated what he stands against, ie what he calls the โ€œmistreatment of the Aboriginal Communityโ€. (see media release and speech on the NSW Parliament website http://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/prod/parlment/hansart.nsf/V3HHBSpeaker?open&vwCat=Nile,%20Reverend%20The%20Hon%20Fred and his personal site)

Re: Abuse of women and children. Again I point you to the aforementioned sources for evidence. Through my contacts with social advocacy / lobby groups, I know that Nile is known for his stance of protecting women and children from psychological, physical and sexual abuse. Again my point here is not to glorify the guy with a big long diatribe, but rather just point out some facts.

Rebbecca, โ€œI have a problem with trying to tone down anything that could be seen to reflect remotely negatively on himโ€. How so? All we have endeavoured to do is add further information on what this Nile guy is about. Iโ€™m sorry if Nile isnโ€™t the 2D cartoon, readily held up for ridicule, that you wish him to be, but this isnโ€™t your personal De Sturmer / propaganda page. By your response, you merely elucidate the underlying nature / bias of your POV protests. This isnโ€™t about trying to make Nile look bad..or good. This is about facts. Davehas12 07:05, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Military service again

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I have just noticed that Nile was born in December 1934. He thus cannot have joined the CMF in 1948 as stated by Dave above. He may have been a school cadet. Adam 09:01, 5 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]


Adam,

Yes, evidentally the CMF had a cadet wing. BTW, I agree on the Mardi Gra edit; Fact. I also made some minor adjustments and added a link to CMF. Also included the bit about volunteering at 17 as this proved to be a point of confusion with you Adam, it no doubt would many others. Davehas12 12:13 AM 9 November 2006

Minor Edit

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"Appeals to Christians". I don't believe this to be correct. Whilst Nile does use a lot of religious phraseology that would appeal to Christians, I believe this to be more an indication of his personal beliefs rather than an implicit attempt to only court the Christian vote. Thoughts? Davehas12 11:53AM 10 November 2006 EDST

Fair use rationale for Image:Fredposter.jpg

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Image:Fredposter.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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Leaving the Uniting Church

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According to his own website, [1], he did in fact leave because of homosexual ordination. This surprised me too, as I thought there would be a large number of reasons. I'm surprised he didn't leave 20 years ago. I guess this was the straw that broke the camel's back. Thux2828 00:35, 8 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Topless bathing and Caligula

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Fred was famous for running around on Bondi Beach dressed in suit & tie, protesting against topless bathing, and telling women to put their tops back on. He also was famous for protesting against films and art exhibitions that depicted nudity and sex, with the result that he would cause so much publicity that more people would attend those events to see what the fuss was about. An example was when Fred and a group of nuns marched outside a cinema screening Caligula, which did wonders for ticket sales. This history should all be in the article, as it is what Fred is famous for. However, to access the archives of The Sydney Morning Herald for the late 1970s and early 1980s costs money. If anyone happens to be delving into the SMH archives, they could search for some Fred Nile references from that era. Thanks,--Lester 21:22, 7 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sheikh Taj El-Din Hamid Hilaly comment

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I query the need for the for that line in the 'Views on the Muslim community' section. Besides the fact it is targeted at a specific person and not the Muslim community in general, it was a view held by quite a number of people and not solely specific to Nile. Lynx Raven Raide (talk) 21:17, 22 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Niles comments about Muslim womens' headdress went further than the article states, as Nile said they should be banned. He's made so many comments now, it needs its own section.Lester 05:12, 19 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

2007 Australian Senate election attempt

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This entry requires updating. What was the result for this venture, and how did it compare to any earlier attempt(s)? Calibanu 03:09, 4 December 2007 (UTC)Calibanu[reply]

Still being counted. They're not getting anyone into the Senate, though, that's for sure. --Stormie 08:53, 4 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Could someone provide an explanation why- say, from an NSW political scientist or newspaper columnist? I imagine that Family First had something to do with that. Calibanu (talk) 21:26, 6 December 2007 (UTC)Calibanu[reply]

Fred Nile vs. The Greens

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As far as I know, the Greens have not responded to Fred Nile's characterisation of them as "anti-family", "anti-Christian", "pagan" etc. As such, this is not the place to talk about what the Greens actually stand for.

Yes, I know, the Greens' official policy is secular and strongly in favour of freedom of religion. Unless someone can find a citation for someone specifically responding to Fred Nile and the CDP's accusations, that's not relevant here. -- De Guerre (talk) 02:23, 5 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

But we can't let his accusation stand when we know it to be false. It is a place to talk about what they actually stand for if it's to correct his mischaracterisation. It's not original research to simply state that his claim is false. I'll find a citation of Greens policy for the secular claim if you like, but it shouldn't have to be directed against Nile to make it into his article. I think the "anti-family" one is too subjective, would require nitty-gritty analysis of policy (I think the Greens say they support families "of all sorts"). This can be ignored but the pagan claim is falsifiable.
The other option is to leave it out altogether, but I think Nile has made the Greens his primary target and there really needs to be such a section. Nick 04:03, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
I like the state of that paragraph post De Guerre's edit. If the Greens have ever officially responded and said "we are not a pagan party, we are a secular party", we could reference that, but if they've never dignified such nonsense with a response (and I suspect that they have not, I certainly didn't find anything googling their website), it's not our place to do so. --Stormie (talk) 04:55, 5 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I made a couple of minor changes to this section to recast the language as reporting Nile's opinions. The language as it stood made some direct, broad and factually dubious statements about the Greens and their policies which were potentially not NPoV. Sambauers (talk) 08:47, 21 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Fred Nile is campaigning against Muslims again

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Yet again, Fred Nile is campaigning on Muslim issues again. It has been reported in the news that Nile was yesterday addressing the crowd of protesters at meetings opposing the construction of an Islamic school at Camden in South-West Sydney. For those who oppose the section titled Views on the Muslim community, I think current events prove that the section is necessary and Nile will keep creating content to expand it.Lester 20:25, 19 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Nile's views are indeed worthy of noting, if for no other reason than to highlight how ridiculous they generally are. --Pete (talk) 22:46, 19 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I would like the article to discuss why these extreme views are so popular, and why the political process legitimatizes and enables people like Nile to rise to and maintain leadership positions. In other words, how did he get to where he is, and why? This will give the readers insight on who his supporters are and the types of people he represents. Viriditas (talk) 22:12, 11 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

POV Violation

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"The death threats seem, superficially at least, to simultaneously justify and perpetuate his followers' antipathy towards the Islamic community." Chrismaltby (talk) 12:42, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Attempted to remove this PoV violation by Chrismaltby several times now. Davehas12 (talk) 04:12, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Davehas12, that NPOV isn't mine, I already had a go at toning it down. Please do your research before making these kinds of allegations. Chrismaltby (talk) 01:40, 18 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Pornography allegations

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Usually I am not quick to add a recent event to Wikipedia, since, in my opinion, most recentism does not stand the test of time. I do think that allegations that pornography was accessed on Nile's parliamentary computer account is an exception, given his strong public moral stance. The risk here is that the section can quickly start resembling a news article with updates on every angle of the story as it unfolds. Some of this is probably important for balance, but getting it right is difficult. Any thoughts? Wikipeterproject (talk) 02:03, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I would suggest having nothing in the article at all about this. It is shallow, sensationalist rubbish. As a teacher in a government school I can assure you that what these audits deem to be pornography is often nothing of the kind. Advertisements on the SMH website are often censored as pornography. It must be pretty salacious stuff. I'm no fan of Fred's, but this addition to the article is totally inappropriate. It's times like this that the Tele's credibility as a WP:RS must also be questioned. HiLo48 (talk) 08:19, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I am still very concerned about this material being in the article at all. In simple terms, we have a report from the Daily Telegraph saying that he did access porn, and a parliamentary enquiry saying he didn't. This has to be one of those times when an occasionally credible source, the Tele, has to be ignored. I am no fan of Fred's, but WP:BLP tells us that he deserves better than this. HiLo48 (talk) 02:21, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with HiLo48. Considering this is a BLP we need more than 1 source for this "extraordinary claim" per BLP. โ€“ Lionel (talk) 06:51, 4 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sydney Morning Herald and ethics classes

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Poorly written, poorly punctuated, casual section. Needs to be included, but in an appropriate form. โ€” Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.106.199.160 (talk) 05:52, 5 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Good edit removing it. Completely agree.--Mkativerata (talk) 08:10, 5 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The section has now been rewritten as Views on ethics classes in government schools with improved sources of background to Nile's claims in August 2011. I beleive that as there is now some context, the section is an appropriate refelection of Nile's public position and the issue. Jherschel (talk) 09:08, 11 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

BLP Genocide allegations

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edits are coming from a figure probably connected to Turkish lobby attacking the genocide comments. -- Aronzak (talk) 01:59, 2 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

CDP copying this page?

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The Christian Democratic Party (CDP) seems to like this BLP so much they appear to have been copying it.

"Nile is noted for his controversial comments.[citation needed]."

As of today that text appears on Freds bio at https://www.christiandemocraticparty.com.au/team/leadership-group/ and was on his BLP here on WP too! (I've now added a few cites) Seems a bit odd to have [citation needed] appearing there! 220 of Borg 08:18, 6 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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"Fred Nile/draft" listed at Redirects for discussion

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A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Fred Nile/draft. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 February 3#Fred Nile/draft until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. ๐Ÿ™๐Ÿค๐Ÿฏ๐Ÿบ๐ช๐‘ค๐’†๐“‡๐Ÿท๐Ÿฎ๐Ÿฅ๐Ÿœ๐“บ๐”ด๐•–๐–—๐Ÿฐ (๐—๐—ฎ๐˜ญ๐™ ) 16:28, 3 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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