Talk:Eastern Slavic naming customs

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Archives

Archive 1

A candidate for Guinness Book?

When I was doing some research for Wikipedia , google showed me a curious name: litvinenkovich@mail.ru

The surname "Litvinenkovich" is triple-patronymic generation:

Litvin - a nickname or surname
Litvinenok - son of Linvin
Litvinenkov - son of Litvinenok
Litvinenkovich - son of Litvinenkov

I.e. basically Lithuaniansonsonson :-) Can any surname beat it? Staszek Lem (talk) 18:45, 16 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Is enok a patronymic or a diminutive? —Tamfang (talk) 22:41, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It is both. I guess this construction originated as a patronymic nickname (kind of "Litvin Junior", "Little Litvin") an turned into a surname, as the nicknames go. Lokys dar Vienas (talk) 01:11, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Makar

В одній сім'ї могли буди декілька людей з різними прізвищами.

Макар/Вакар (пастух)

Макаревич (1 син пастуха)

Макарев (котрих буде)

Макаревський (звідки)

Макаренко ( enko => ingo => ing )

Макарюк "/у/о/е/я+к" чи "ко" для кращого звучання

Макарчий

In one family could have been several people with different surnames.

Makar / Wakar (shepherd) -ar profession sfx.

Makarevich (1 son of a Makar)

Makarov (who will be)

MMakarevsky (from the)

Makarenko (enko => ingo => ing)

Macarion suffix "/u/o/e/i + k" or "ko" for better sounding

Makarchi

95.133.33.39 (talk) 13:30, 22 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

-enko == -ing

Улыбок тебе дед Макар! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.107.106.204 (talk) 23:45, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Romanization

Note 1 below the table for the male names says: "The same romanization system is used for all three languages for comparative purposes."

I have few problems with it:

1. Exactly what "same" system is used in the table?

2. Provided romanizations are inconsistent and often wrong. For example:

At the 10th row Russian "Дмитрий" transliterated as "Dmitrij" with Cyrillic "й" represented as Latin "j". This is correct for Belarusian national romanization system, but for Russian and Ukrainian national systems Latin "i" should be used to represent Cyrillic "й" at this position (instead of "j"). And at the very next row Russian "Сергей" is transliterated as "Sergei" with Cyrillic "й" represented as Latin "i" - an obvious inconsistency.
At the 25th row Russian/Ukrainian/Belarusian Игорь/Ігор/Ігар transliterated as Igor/Ihor/Ihar with Cyrillic "г" represented as Latin "g" for Russian and as Latin "h" for Ukrainian and Belarusian (in accordance with their national romanization systems). This is contrary to the statement that "The same romanization system is used for all three languages for comparative purposes."

(Btw, transliteration of Ukrainian names across Wikipedia is an inconsistent mess. I would like to know if Wikipedia formally adopted some romanization system, because whatever it is it's not Ukrainian national system, often not even pre-2019 BGN/PCGN.) 178.165.48.194 (talk) 01:46, 15 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

To your first point, I don't know what system is supposedly being used, but you're right that it's evidently not been followed consistently. To your second point, if we want a consistent system across languages (Russian, Ukrainian, Belarusian...), then it seems the only language-neutral romanization of Cyrillic is ISO 9. The question then is whether this is something we want to do. Would it be better to preserve the "Igor/Ihor/Ihar" distinction? Is there any actual gain in clarity from merging them all to "Igor"? Or are we just annoying a bunch of Ukrainians and Belarusians for no discernable benefit?

As for your parenthetical, there are two issues. One, by the naming conventions policy, Wikipedia is at the mercy of the English language's own inconsistency: if there's a common name in English, we use that, even if it doesn't fit the systematic romanization (e.g. Groysman, not Hroisman; arguably Zelensky, though that's complicated by there being multiple romanizations in use). And two, for Ukrainian specifically, there aren't any official policies, as such; we have WP:UKRAINIANNAMES and WP:UKROM, but they're more like guidelines. Following those guidelines, if there isn't a common name, then we should use the old Ukrainian national system (= BGN/PCGN), not the 2019 revision. So if you see romanizations that break those rules, please go ahead and change them! -- Perey (talk) 06:17, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for replying.

`Would it be better to preserve the "Igor/Ihor/Ihar" distinction?` -- In the context of the article's table: yes, definitely preserve the distinction. If merged into "Igor" it will annoy at least some (or many) Ukrainians and Belarusians for no benefit. Besides, this name aren't the same in romanization, in Cyrillic writing and in pronunciation. The same logic applies to virtually all other names. One "almost exception" that I came up with is Ivan (Cyrillic ru/uk/by: Иван/Іван/Іван) which is romanized the same way and pronounced about the same way (IMHO), but it's still written differently in Cyrillic.

I'm not sure what is "old Ukrainian national system (= BGN/PCGN)". While there was plenty of national (and Soviet) romanization systems for Ukrainian, to my knowledge, none of them were fully in accordance with BGN/PCGN 1965. Per 2019 agreement the BGN/PCGN 1965 system replaced with the 2010 Ukrainian National system, but the 2010 Ukrainian National system isn't "old" - it is "current" and in force as of January 2022. Hopefully, the Ukrainian Government dropped the habit of changing romanization systems every 3 years for good.

Anyway, I skimmed both WP:UKRAINIANNAMES and WP:UKROM and they state that for general romanization:

"Ukrainian is transliterated using the Ukrainian National system of 2010" -- WP:UKRAINIANNAMES
"The Ukrainian National system of 2010 is used for general romanization of Ukrainian terms and names in Wikipedia. It is official for all proper names in Ukraine, and is used by the United Nations. It is intended for readers of English, and is easy to read and type. It also corresponds to the current UNGEGN 2013 and BGN/PCGN 2019 systems." -- WP:UKROM

A side note rant: Some Ukrainians believe(d) that BGN/PCGN 1965-compliant romanizations were "God's gifts", often without knowing about BGN/PCGN 1965 existence. Some find the 2010 Ukrainian National system ugly and ignore it as much as they could, others surprised to find out that Ukraine has any romanization standards at all. This same people will use the 2010 Ukrainian National system here and there without realizing it, mostly for geographical names, as even fans of BGN/PCGN 1965 don't write "Kyyiv" instead of "Kyiv" or "L'viv" instead of "Lviv". Some people even went to courts in attempts to change romanizations of their names, to no avail as Ukrainian laws don't allow this (one can change name in Cyrillic but not pick romanization, except if particular romanization of the name was already used in their existing documents). It's a mess, but the situation is getting better as people are getting more aware of and accustomed to the 2010 Ukrainian National system (for example, I see more use of it in online names and such).

Cheers! -- 178.165.48.194 (talk) 07:51, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Vera as Slavic name

The article claims (in a caption) that Veruschka von Lehndorff's given name, Vera, is Slavic. I found this questionable (though not unbelievable). There is a Slavic root věra meaning "faith, belief", underlying the name Vera in Slavic cultures... but von Lehndorff is German, of German aristocratic descent. While she was born in East Prussia, perhaps making a Slavic name more likely, this statement needs a citation. If it can't be supported, it can perhaps still be rescued, by removing the claim of it being a Slavic name (in this instance) and simply pointing out that she's adopted a Slavic diminutive for her Slavic-compatible name. -- Perey (talk) 03:33, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Taking a look at the article on the name Vera, it suggests that the name itself originated in Slavic languages and the only suggestion it had a different origin is poorly sourced. I would also argue that the fact it is being pared with a Slavic diminuitive makes it obvious that we are dealing with a Slavic name. Worth looking into but I don't think it merits a dubious tag.--Yellow Diamond Δ Direct Line to the Diamonds 01:24, 16 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal: replace name that is also name of commander of an army waging a war outside the borders of its country

I would like to propose no longer using the name that is also the name of the person currently in the position of Supreme-Commander-in-Chief of an army that is waging a war outside of the borders of its country. There seems to be no particular use for precisely this name to be used as an example, and readers - such as myself - (may) feel uncomfortable (to say the least) now that that name is used in the context of an article about naming customs, i.e. with no particular relation to that person.

I call on anyone knowledgeable to replace it with a name that can serve well as an example.Redav (talk) 00:30, 5 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Scope and Title

Either this article is only about russian names and is called russian names or it is about east Slavic names in general and keeps it's current title. Right now aside from a WP:LEDEBOMB it is only about russian names not east slavic ones—blindlynx 22:12, 24 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Reversion to pre-213.87.145.86 version

I have reverted this article to this version, before a series of edits by 213.87.145.86 (talk · contribs · WHOIS). These edits introduced a great deal of editorializing, POV, and just plain incorrect material, much of it written incomprehensibly. The edits also removed a lot of correct, properly sourced material. Most of the edits since then have been fairly minor, or have partially reverted or corrected the edits by 213.87.145.86. In my judgment it's easier to simply revert to this earlier version. —Psychonaut (talk) 15:42, 21 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

in writing

Does the section "Anglicisation" say anything not equally applicable to writing in the source language(s)? —Tamfang (talk) 20:27, 5 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

identifying a name

Eastern Slavic naming customs are the traditional way of identifying a person's family name, given name and patronymic name in East Slavic cultures in Russia and some countries formerly part of the Russian Empire and the Soviet Union.

Is that really all it is? The naming customs consist of recognizing that the patronymic ends (usually) in –vič/–vna, and like that? Nothing to do with the choice of a given name itself???? —Tamfang (talk) 04:40, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm about confused as to what you're postulating... 25eanglin (talk) 03:44, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm saying, if "the traditional way of identifying a person's family name, given name and patronymic name" is all it is, then the article need not be much more than one sentence: In Eastern Slavic naming customs, a person's given name is followed by a patronymic and a family name. There. Now you know how to identify an Eastern Slavic person's family name, given name and patronymic name. Oh, I guess for completeness it should mention that the patronymic usually ends in vič/vna.

What about (for a start) the repertoire of common names, with their etymologies? Taken literally, the lead sentence says that does not belong here. —Tamfang (talk) 02:54, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, yes, correct. 25eanglin (talk) 16:40, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]