Talk:Abraxas

= Dialectic: In the beginning, there was a word (logos) and the word was : Judge

A judge is whatever the people want to be the judge. Is ist mammon ( money ) or abba ( your parents/experience ) ? sry, did I violate wiki ( v-key v-key ) guidelines, again? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A0A:A540:C0A:0:B9E7:BEB5:A7E3:EF0E (talk) 09:13, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

Historical Accuracy:

The comments about Abraxas being an Archon, about Abraxas being good as well as evil, do not come from either the Abraxas stones nor from ancient Gnostic texts, nor from the Greek Magical Papyrii. It is a speculative interpretation found among some scholars prior to the discovery and translation of the Nag Hammadi library that is at odds with what was found there, and it isn't clearly from the writings of the heresy-hunter's either, who are ambiguous. It is a view one could get from the views of C.G.Jung and his patient Herman Hess (author of Demian), so it could belong there. They didn't have the Gospel of the Egyptians, so they were speculating with less information than we have now.

Of questionable encyclopedic merit:

"In the fictional world of Charmed, Abraxas is a demon of the astral plane who destroys witches by demonising their powers. He appears on the 1st year anniversary of the Charmed Ones gaining their powers, as part of a Rite of Passage. The Book of Shadows says: Rite of Passage - Fight it with the power of one or else a more powerful Evil that awaits will destroy you.

His powers are Reviving defeated adversaries of the Charmed Ones by reading the Book Of Shadows backwards. He was vanquished by reciting the spell to receive a witches powers - Connect the Power of Three, to work as one."

---

I want to remove this but I fear Shannon Dougherty's powers. Actually, I don't see how this is encyclopedic. It does nothing to enhance my understanding of Abraxas. Feel free to vote off my inclusion of the Abraxas Foundation to this site. There are numerous people who find that to be relevant and important as a legitimate example of the spiritual influence of Abraxas in a direct, socio-political context. Whereas, the Charmed silliness is merely the plot of a tv program.

Curtsurly 20:03, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)Curtsurly

I agree, it seems the writer just picked a name that he thought sounded old as these series often do. In charmed they have lampooned every old myth/belief from Barbas/Barbas, the Demon of Fear to biblical figures such as Gideon and totally revamped their myths. While this might be worth mentioning on a list of charmed bad guys i don't think linking a fictional work of no real similarity beside the name to this non-fiction article would be of benifit to people interested. If for no other reason than the two characters have no similarities other than name the passage should stay out. --Seth Turner 17:30, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

so far, the 1911 text was simply dumped here. It needs to be worked into the article. I'll put up the cleanup tag until somebody gets round to it (possibly me, over the next week or two). dab (ᛏ) 07:08, 11 July 2005 (UTC) Thyphoon Does have anyone ideea abut the similarities between abraxas representations and Thyphoon?

I'm going to remove the link to the jewelry store too, it's just a shop called Abraxas and has no relevance to the topic. 203.97.110.64 (talk) 03:10, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Tertulian's Quote

Does anyone know the exact reference of this quote? I would like to study it in context and in the original Lucius Domitius 17:23, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

"Abrasax"

What does this sentence mean? It really needs fixing, as it is unintelligible as it stands. "The true name, moreover, is Abrasax, and not, as incorrectly written, Abraxas, a reading due to the confusion made by the Latins between Sigma and Xi." confusion made by the Latins? Romans? They make confusion? Should the word "misinterpretation" or "misreading" replace reading?

I propose: "The true name, moreover, is Abrasax, and not, as incorrectly written, Abraxas, which is a misreading due to the confusion of the letters sigma and xi." Unless this misreading can be directly attributed to the Romans, I'm leaving that part out.

Apparently the German version of this article has a more clear explanation and a source for this statement (Catholic Encyclopedia). Here is an attempt at a translation of the German wiki:

The initial spelling of the word was "Abrasax". The spelling used today probably originates in the confusion made between the Greek letters Sigma and Xi in the Latin translation.

Here is a probable source [1] of the initial statement. You will find it verbatim in there.

Here is a page (in Greek) that has some relevant pictures: [2] (scroll to the bottom and look at the group before the last picture). The Greek text above the pictures also reads "Αβρασάξ", which corresponds to Abrasax if we are to transliterate, as is usual, sigma as s and xi as x.

Based on all this, I would think it acceptable to add the paragraph back. — Daniel Mahu · talk · 14:17, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Be careful about using Catholic sources - they lack NPOV, as the Inquisition's attack on seventeenth-century science was a cover-up after Phillip of Spain let the cat out of the bag, using an asset they'd hidden which sparked the Alchemical fever of the 1560s (citation withheld by author on grounds of new research - it's documented and under peer review at the moment, initial agreement is established). This then sparked the birth of chemistry (Helmont leading to Leibnitz) and physics (Isaac Newton). The link with Abraxas is discussed in the Candlestick debate below. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.64.13.225 (talk) 00:01, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Even in the image File:Abraxas, Nordisk familjebok.png the text reads as 'Abrasax'. Note that 'ABPACAZ', as a transliteration of Greek letters, would be read thus:

• A as A: straightforward match of Α
• B as B: straightforward match of Β (note that Ancient Greek pronunciation rather than the Modern Greek /v/)
• P as R: closest character match for Ρ
• A as A: straightforward match of Α
• C as S: using the lunate form of Σ
• A as A: straightforward match of Α
• Z as X: a Z with a crossbar being the closest character match for Ξ (particularly when joined)

-Stelio (talk) 12:54, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Graphic of candlestick

Is the work identified as being that of Abraxas? The figure more resembles Melusine, the two-tailed mermaid that is believed to be the progenitor of a famous French noble house. The mermaid on the Starbuck's label is based on her. Abraxas is supposed to be depicted as being male with the the head of a rooster. Hotspur23 13:44, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

I think Hotspur is right. The image is not Abraxas. ThePeg 13:43, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

The Montmorency Melusine (to name names) is a demonic beast, sometimes revealed by a double serpents' tail, but the Templar seals do sometimes show a female variant of Abraxas - I think the third image is one of them. There are, moreover, a number of practices derived from the Templars associated with this House down the ages which tie the thing together - the charges on which Gilles de Rais was executed in 1440, Connétable Anne de Montmorency who survived the rise of the House of Guise in 1539 because of his involvement in Catherine de'Medici's occult studies with Ruggieri at Chaumont, and the charge of heresy (not treason as suggested, by the way - there was no reason to execute a stabilising force whose irritations were tolerated by Phillip II) on which the Inquisition executed the Counts of Hoornes and Egmont in 1568. All were Montmorencies.

More relevant, perhaps, is the association with the Phoenician and Philistine cult of Dagon, which has echoes in Gilles de Rais' less than saintly demise and a number of other cases in this area, not least Marc Dutroux' collaboration with Gendarmerie members of the Charleroi Abraxas satanic sect and Ian Huntley's favourite prison pastime. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.64.13.225 (talk) 23:46, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

It looks like there was good reason to take out the candlestick picture, so I went ahead and dumped it, along with adding a lot of quotations and general cleanup. I would like to hear more from our anonymous Templar-researching friend, but I'm afraid I can't understand a word he's saying. Kramden (talk) 05:31, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

moved passage

From the article: As the original Gnostics who utilized the mystery name of Abrasax such as Basilides identified as Christian or were practitioners of a form of mystical Judaism, this ritual cannot be taken seriously as accurately representing the meaning of this symbol.

This seems odd for two reasons. Gnosticism apparently started as a pagan religion or group of religions, and the sentence makes assumptions about where meaning can come from. Dan (talk) 05:59, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

An anonymous contributor (the same one?) claims that, "In the context of the original system of Christian Gnosticism, where the first references to Abrasax occur, Babylon and the Beast of the Apocalypse (which are primary to Thelema, where they are given an extremely positive valuation) are definitely symbolic of the Archons which embody spiritual oppression." Archons, for those just joining us, means rulers or authorities. Now take a look at a published source contradicting our anonymous friend here, giving the actual translation of the Gnostic source here. (Note that different Gnostics at different times made a lot of different remarks.) Dan (talk) 00:02, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Soundgarden, "Worship Abraxas"

The lyrics are highly interesting: "In my eyes..." If you like it, you can build it into the main article. GOD bless--Omikron23 (talk) 13:01, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

I removed the Youtube link (dead as a copyvio anyway) and the lyrics aside from the first line. we cant add lyrics for songs this recent unless the band releases all copyright.Mercurywoodrose (talk) 03:22, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Medieval Seal representing Abraxas

Medieval Seal representing Abraxas

I don't know what the exact provenance of this image is, or who has proclaimed it to be Abraxas. Sources? Anything? Kramden (talk) 06:52, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

I added some information to the file page. Kaldari (talk) 06:48, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

Split modern references

Some of the material is a bit sparse or superfluous but perhaps it would be better placed in a separate article, perhaps Abraxas in Modern Culture or whatever name would be convential. The Jungian reference obviously needs to be here but we could redirect to a new main article for the rest. Combining list-like elements into paragraphs could help. Ideas? Obotlig (talk) 04:22, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

I'm inclined to not do this. I dont see extensive use in modern or popular culture, and i am also not a fan of lists of trivial uses of words as band names, etc. a lot of this is unsourced, and should be removed even if verifiable, as nonnotable.Mercurywoodrose (talk) 03:18, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Duly removed. First, things simply named "Abraxas" should go in Abraxas (disambiguation). Second, "In popular culture" material must be cited to a reliable third-party source that connects it to the primary topic of the article. Lacking that it is simply a "mention" or original research. Yworo (talk) 04:14, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

When IPC items get taken out, people inevitably add them back again, and nobody seems to feel the need to police this article to make sure that they get properly referenced. The only option seems to be to make the main article so long that people will get bored with scrolling before they reach the bottom. Kramden (talk) 05:50, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

I removed some more detail as non-notable/off topic. For the purposes of this article, we don't much care what Abraxas' role is in the plot, except as it relates to the mythological Abraxas. Hairy Dude (talk) 04:10, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

References needed in Jung and Hesse

I find the request for references regarding Jung and Hesse's quotes unexpected, given that they are explicited before they are presented; namely, Hesse's "Damien" and Jung's "Seven Sermons To The Dead". --Xyzt1234 (talk) 21:47, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

In popular culture

The band "Death Grips" mention Abraxas in "Get Got" but I currently can not and do not want to add this as another item to the list. It would be greatly appreciated if someone can do this for me with the appropriate information and maybe the reason the name was used at all, of which I am unaware 79.3.61.92 (talk) 20:41, 11 March 2024 (UTC)