Talk:Frederic John Walker

First comment

• 1) Of what exactly did he die? a heart attack?
• 2) In which boat did his son die?

Bastie 23:10, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

• 1) Cerebral thrombosis
• 2) HMS Parthian

But it's in the text of the article now. Xyl 54 (talk) 13:18, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Other memorials

There was some sort of memorial to him in either Litherland or Bootle town hall, I htink it may have been the flags flown as the General Chase signal. I don't remember exact details as it is some years snce I was their during a reception hosted by the then Mayor of Sefton for members of the Sefton Youth Wind Orchestra. Hardly meets NOR criteria at the moment, but perhaps someone else could find out more. David Underdown 13:44, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, and there's an exhibit in the Merseyside Maritime Museum, too. It's mentioned on the General chase page. Xyl 54 (talk) 13:28, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Bootle Town Hall Grand chamber contains ships flags, bells, and other memorabilia from Walkers Black Swan Class Sloops which he used to such great effect. In the National Maritime Museum, Albert Dock, there is a section on the Battle of the Atlantic, and a sub section devoted to Walker and his ships. I recently donated the original Ships Badge of HMS Wild Goose to this sub section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Elbmek (talk • contribs) 16:34, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Walker's first name

My 1956 copy of his biography, Walker, R.N. consistently refers to his first name as Frederic rather than Frederick (which is the spelling used in the article). In the introduction, the author thanks Walker's wife (to whom the book is dedicated) for her time and access to her late husband's documents, along with a lengthy list of other people who knew Walker personally. One of the photos in the book is of a commemorative plaque commissioned by the crew of HMS Starling after his death that also uses the name Frederic. It seems unlikely to me that a biographer having access to primary sources, or Walker's own crew, would spell his name incorrectly. Incidently most of the text of the book can be found on the BBC website at [1] Jll 19:46, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

This issue seems to be very confused. The ODNB, artilce gives his name as Frederick, but his father's name as Frederic, and entries in the London Gazette also seem to be inconsistent. David Underdown (talk) 11:58, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

World War 2

There are several references to Walker "flying his flag", since he was only a captain this can't be strictly accurate, only admirals can do that (I thought). David Underdown 08:54, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

The phrasing may be incorrect here. In command of a group of other vessels, whether you had command of your own vessel or a captain under you, I believe would make one a commodore. I believe commodore in the Royal Navy is an honorary rank, and though a commodore has a flag designating the command of the group, it would not go with the captain in overall command once his duties in the group were concluded. Thus he would have a flag while in command of the group but he would not have been promoted to "flag rank". I think that would be the reasoning here, though I do not have sourcing for this particular case.Gunbirddriver (talk) 02:46, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

WW2, again

I understansd that Walker rescued U boat crews in order to interrogate them, but once he had found the name & captain's name used to let the remainder drown. I do not judge him for this since one of the ways in which the U Boat campaign was defeated was the impact of huge losses among the crews - something like 80% and by this point the war had got especially ruthless. However Doenitz was sentenced to 20 years for giving a similar command to his U Boats. Maybe when you do this you may expect the other side to retaliate. Still Wlker's actions were against official RN policy Streona (talk) 18:00, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

WTF!!!

Do you have any evidence for this allegation? Xyl 54 (talk) 13:23, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

The more I’ve thought about this the more of a bloody cheek it becomes:

U-boat commanders invariably left survivors to their fate after interrogating them about their ship (check any of these at random, if you like) so if this had happened it would only be a case of "the biter bit".

And as they’d since earliest times shown no compunction at all about attacking ships that had stopped to rescue survivors, DEMS regulations were clear that no survivors would be picked up, to avoid endangering more ships; so it was official RN policy.

Despite this, U boat crews did get picked up, and Walker was no exception. He and his group accounted for 17 U-boats; where there were survivors (a lot of them were destroyed at depth, and no-one got out) he picked them up (check that, here).

But it’s a shame to let the facts get in the way of a good smear… Xyl 54 (talk) 23:50, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Walker's actual policy was to tell the U-Boat crew survivors that he would not let any of them on-board until he'd been given the U-Boat's number, i.e., the name of the boat, e.g., U-324, and the name of the Kapitan. This was usually given as most crews would have someone willing to give the names, besides it was very cold in the North Atlantic water, especially in winter. The rest of the crew would then be picked-up, time-permitting.

If not, i.e., if there were still U-Boat contacts in the area, a float or raft would be dropped for them and then a ship (usually a corvette or a frigate) sent back for them later when it was safe. This was the same policy for friend or enemy, as no-one in their right mind was going to stop their ship and be a sitting target for a torpedo if there were known U-Boats around - although some (brave) Captains still did. There would have been no point in Walker leaving anyone to drown as they were POWs by then anyway, and there were specialised ships in the convoys for picking-up survivors, both friend and foe. I suspect that what happened was that while he was trying to pick-up the U-Boat survivors he got a report of another U-Boat and had to leave in a hurry. This would have been very abrupt and may well have appeared to the Germans that they were being abandoned. This would also have been the same though, whether it was a friend or enemy in the water.

There was no reason for the U-Boat crews withholding this information as it would be given in equivalent circumstances by British ship's captains (name of ship, captains' name, etc.) and although undoubtedly useful for intelligence purposes, it would also be supplied to the Swiss Red Cross, who would then inform the relevant belligerent country, (in the U-Boat's case, Germany) who could then inform the survivor's relatives that so-and-so had been made a POW and was safe (alive). The withholding of this information may well have been interpreted by the British as 'bloody-mindedness by Nazis', in which case, the battle became one between the 'Nazi's' ideology, and Hypothermia. Usually the latter won and they gave the requested information.

Most of Walker's U-Boat 'kills' were of submerged U-Boats sunk by depth charges, Hedgehog, and Squid, so there weren't usually any survivors. The only way a sunk U-Boat had any survivors was if it was caught on the surface, or surfaced after being attacked.

BTW, U-Boats themselves didn't usually pick-up survivors. They didn't have the room, although earlier in the war if it was safe many Captains would surface and give survivors in the lifeboats of the ships they had sunk provisions and water. Later in the war though, things became much too dangerous for them to risk this.

The British took the Battle of the Atlantic very seriously, and if it became a choice between saving someone in the water or losing a ship, well I'm sorry to say that the choice was keeping the ship, and, unless the risk to the ship was small, the people were left to drown. It took a year to build a ship, and Britain lost over 4,000 merchant ships during the war, mostly to U-Boats, and U-Boat survivors weren't treated any differently. If the British could reasonably-safely pick-up survivors, they did, if not, they were left in the water, friend and foe alike. That was a fact of life.

... and if you really want to know what it was all like for the British back then, watch The Cruel Sea or read the book. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.112.46.179 (talk) 20:05, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

Walker never left any sailor in the water. This is a complete fabrication. What he actually did, when rescuing German sailors, was ask them which U Boat they were from, the answer was usually forthcoming. On one occasion, U202, a sailor was asked what was his pennant number to which he refused, so Walker said throw him back in. The sailor immediately volunteered the required information and was hauled on board as were all the other survivors. If a prisoner died of wounds, a full military funeral was held with the combined crews attending. One one occasion a sailor on guard had a negligent discharge from his pistol, wounding a prisoner. Walker immediately began an enquiry and asked the prisoners to write down what they heard and saw, they corroberated the accident. Copies were also sent to both the Admiralty and the Red Cross, in order to inform the Kriegsmarine. Walker was a humanitarian with crews, loved by his men, and highly respected by the enemy. Even when he lost his son in submarine HMS Parthian, he did not 'hate' his enemy but was always most diligent in pursuit and destruction of their vessels. I have been in contact with Captain Walker's grandson in connection with a book I have had published and a book, on Walker, I am currently writing, my research is extensive and has so far lasted nearly 6 years. He and crewmen of Walker, have verified my research. Also see www.secondworldwar.org.uk/walkerindex.html, several pages on the story of Capt Walker RN. My work on Capt Walker includes the publication of these facts in Defence Dept publications in other countries. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Elbmek (talk • contribs) 16:19, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Peter Eustace, Radar Operator on board the HMS Starling gives a different account, as recorded in the BBC special Battle of the Atlantic (2002). He states "We had a rule that unless we discovered the number and kapitan of the submarine, we would not pick them up." He describes letting a 16 yo slip through his grasp and fall back into the sea, as the officer in charge did not get a clear answer to his question from the submariners floating in the ocean after sinking U-264, and so ordered "Let the prisoner go." The event in question occurred in February 1944, the group was the 2nd Escort Group (2 SG). The group of sloops was specialized in hunting U-Boats and was well aware that no other boats were in the immediate vicinity. In fact, they had just sunk their sixth U-Boat in a weeks time. It is in the third part of the series titled The Hunted. It can be viewed at the following address at the 5:30 mark:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwwY6XWQcgI Gunbirddriver (talk) 07:25, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Then we have two different sources saying two different things. However, this says when U-264 was sunk there were 52 survivors and no casualties, so Eustace's recollection may well be confused on the matter. Xyl 54 (talk) 21:55, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

Sorry to upset people - I actually heard the allegation on a TV documentary & it made me pause to think about Walker who was a hero to me as a teenager. One of his crewmen was telling the story & I think he felt the same way. On reflection I do not presume to judge. It was a desperate time and ruthlessness was called for. Still if it is not true so much the better.Streona (talk) 00:28, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

Peter Eustace's memory is certainly wrong on the particular U-Boat in question, as Xyl 54 pointed out, but then that was during a string of sinkings, and was followed the next day by one of their escorts being torpedoed and eventually lost. It is difficult to imagine Eustace just making up the story he told, particulary as he said it was a haunting, recurring memory of his war experience. His remorse at letting the young German slip back into the sea was unmistakable. I would think Walker was fighting the war as best he knew how, much as Clive Caldwell did. I am not inclined to put it into the article though. Not without better sourcing, if then. Gunbirddriver (talk) 03:02, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

Unfortunately these days due to the 'meeja-luvvies' many documentaries are not far from being rubbish, some amounting to character assassinations due to the desire for 'controversy' and sensationalism. The subjects are usually dead so the documentary makers have no need to fear being taken to court for slander.

The one saving grace of these types of 'documentaries' is that they are often poorly researched and often get so many basic facts wrong - such as mispronouncing names like Prinz Eugen - that they are fairly easily recognised by people who have a reasonable knowledge of the subject.

This is what the BBC used to make: [2] and [3] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.149.173.74 (talk) 15:31, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

The explanation for the above accusation in the documentary is simple. The man would not drown unless he was very unlucky, he would later be picked up by the convoy's rescue ships, which were provided at the rear of the convoy for just this purpose, i.e., picking up survivors - of any nationality. The location of the U-boat sinking would be signalled to them and an escort or rescue ship would search the area as soon as it was deemed safe to do so. The rescue ships had proper medical facilities as well as doctors on board, which the smaller escorts did not. The convoys were often very large and if four or five ships were sunk there would be a considerable number of survivors, many needing medical treatment, hence the provision of these specialised Convoy Rescue Ships. They picked up and treated anyone.

So no, no-one was knowingly 'left to drown' - even if some people thought they were. By simply stopping Starling and picking up survivors Walker was taking a risk - of himself being torpedoed - that many escort captains would not have bothered to take for the survivors of a U-boat. Some would have left the survivors for the rescue ships and not stopped in the first place.

What I've written above is not secret, or even difficult to find out for someone with a genuine interest in the subject matter. One wonders therefore why the documentary makers who made the programme from-which the quote was taken didn't care to mention these fairly important facts which put the stated 'account' in an entirely different light.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.150.18.147 (talk) 10:02, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Frederick John Walker RN.jpg

Image:Frederick John Walker RN.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 21:26, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Fixed I think. David Underdown (talk) 08:33, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Recent edits

I’ve made a couple of changes:
2SG was a support group, not a hunter-killer group; HK groups were a USN thing. The difference between HK's and SG's reflects the different attitudes to convoy escort between the RN and the USN.
And the tactic Walker is famous for was the creeping attack, while the text described a barrage attack, which was a bit different. Xyl 54 (talk) 13:15, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Last voyage

This section says
"...where he embarked aboard destroyer Hesperus commanded by Captain Donald Macintyre for his final journey to be buried at sea"
and cites MacIntyres book “U Boat Killer”.
I haven’t got a copy to hand, but I don’t remember him saying he commanded for this voyage; MacIntyre had moved to command Bickerton by this time, and Hesperus was commanded by GV Legassick.
Can anyone check this? Xyl 54 (talk) 18:54, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Walker, Hesperus, and MacIntyre

In a desire to help improve this article, I offer the following for those of you who would like some fresh, supported material to edit with: It is stated in this article that Captain Walker's remains were carried by HMS Hesperus, under the command of Donald MacIntyre, RN. In MacIntyre's book, "U-Boat Killer" (Bantam edition, 1979) he writes (p. 156): "... I received orders... in March, 1944, to leave my faithful Hesperus and take command of one of these [new escort type] frigates, the Bickerton...". Frederic John Walker died 9 July 1944. Continuing in MacIntyres book, he further writes (p. 166): "It was a great satisfaction to me that when that greatest of U-Boat killers was buried at sea, it was in my gallant Hesperus that he made his last journey down the Mersey...Hesperus... was worthy of him." As MacIntyre was already commanding HMS Bickerton at the time of Captain Walker's death, and as HMS Bickerton was his last seagoing command, it is certain that Captain MacIntyre is speaking nostalgically regarding "his" old ship; MacIntyre was the first Captain of HMS Hesperus, having taken her into commission from the builders (Thornycrofts), making him what is known in Naval circles as a "plank owner" (being an original crew member of a ship upon its commissioning), and having Captained her during two separate periods of her commission, in very trying circumstances during the Battle of the Atlantic. Perhaps an edit to the effect that Walker's remains were carried out to sea by HMS Hesperus, a veteran destroyer of the Battle of the Atlantic, previously commanded by Captain Donald MacIntyre, RN, with links provided to existing pages for HMS Hesperus and Donald MacIntyre (Royal Navy Officer).67.142.163.37 (talk) 23:07, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for that; I'll take it out. Xyl 54 (talk) 23:24, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Walker was buried at sea, in Liverpool Bay, with a guard of Honour made up of Canadian sailors because Walkers 2nd Support Group had already sailed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Elbmek (talk • contribs) 16:22, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

His Age. Time He Joined the Navy. Discrepancies?

The article says he was born in 1896. It also says he joined the Navy _as an officer_ in 1909. Can he really have been an officer in the Navy at age 13? I know they made kids work as chimney sweeps back in the day, but this seems ludicrous! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.242.167.154 (talk) 14:49, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes, he was 13, according to this; but as his first ship (as Sub-Lt) was when he was 18, I’m guessing he was at RN College as a teenager (maybe as Midshipman). The two above him on the page (Waldegrave, Wake-Walker), joined at the same age, so there doesn't seem to be anything unusual about it. Xyl 54 (talk) 21:49, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

Greatest anti-submarine commander ever?

In the introduction Walker is described as "the most successful anti-submarine warfare commander during the Battle of the Atlantic"... but surely this must make him the most successful anti-submarine commander ever? Or if not who was and shouldn't there be a link from here?86.167.209.240 (talk) 21:02, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

pyrotechnics

My late father was Merchant Navy and served on at least one of Walker's convoys. He did mention that if a ship was torpedoed the other ships were to immediately fire off any rockets in the hope that this light up the area and catch the attacking U boat while it was still surfaced.

Apparently this idea worked for a while and several U boats were seen and sucessfully attacked by the convoy escorts but eventually the Germans realised what was happening and attacked while still submerged.AT Kunene 123 (talk) 11:07, 26 September 2014 (UTC)