Talk:Alma Mahler

Manon, Berg etc

"Alma and Gropius's daughter, Manon (1916-1935), died of polio in 1935, aged seventeen." Correct me if I'm wrong, but that seems like a physical impossibility, given the dates. I am not entirely sure myself what would be right, but this sentence is certainly wrong. elvenscout742 00:26, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Did Berg write only one violin concerto? If so, maybe the article should say "his violin concerto" instead of "a violin concerto." BTW, I like how this article pulls together with the violin concerto article. Danny

Yep, he just wrote the one - I changed it to "his" and also put Violin Concerto in italics seeing as it's referring to a specific piece now rather than a type as it was before. And I agree, the cross-over between here and the concerto article is rather pleasing. Good work on this article, by the way. --Camembert

Double-check me on this, but it seems Manon Gropius was about 17 years old when she died. (Born 1916, Died 1935). So her death in 1935 can't have been the cause of marital discord between her parents, since they were already divorced and her mother had married Werfel in 1929. I've put the chronology right, but the wording could do with some help. --- Someone else 04:45 Apr 1, 2003 (UTC)

Here's the chronology as I've put it together:

Alma Schindler
————————————————————————————————————————————— 
Birth:	31 Aug 1879	Vienna, Austria
Death:	11 Dec 1964	New York
Burial:		Vienna, Austria
Burial Memo:	Grinzinger Friedhof, Vienna, Austria
Plot: Group 6, Row 6, Number 7
Father:	Emil Jakob Schindler (1842-1892)
Mother:	Anna von Bergen (1857-1938)

Spouses
—————————————————————————————————————————————
1:	Gustav Mahler
Birth:	7 Jul 1860	Kalist, Bohemia
Death:	18 May 1911	Vienna, Austria 
Burial:	22 May 1911	Vienna, Austria
Burial Memo:	Grinzinger Friedhof, Vienna, Austria
Plot: Group 6, Row 7, No.1
Father:	Bernard Mahler
Mother:	Marie Hermann
Marriage:	9 Mar 1902	Vienna, Austria
    Children:	Maria Anna (1903-1907)
                    Anna Justina (1904-1988)
—————————————————————————————————————————————
2:	Oskar Kokoschka
Birth:	1 Mar 1886	Pöchlarn
Death:	22 Feb 1980	
Unmarried:		first met in April 1912
—————————————————————————————————————————————
3:	Walter Gropius
Birth:	18 Mar 1883	Berlin, Germany
Death:	5 Jul 1969	Boston, Massachusetts
Burial Memo:	cremated
Marriage:	18 Aug 1915	
Divorce:	(when?)	
Children:	Manon (1916-1935)
—————————————————————————————————————————————
4:	Franz Werfel
Birth:	10 Sep 1890	Austro-Hungary (later Czechoslovakia)
Death:	26 Aug 1945	Hollywood, California
Burial:		Vienna, Austria
Burial Memo:	Zentral Friedhof (Central Cemetery), Vienna, Austria
Plot: Group 32 C, Number 39
Marriage:	8 Jul 1929	
Children:	Martin Charles Johannes (1918-1919)
—————————————————————————————————————————————

Interestingly, the daughter who actually grew to adulthood, Anna Mahler, sculptress, married five times, and generally kept it within the arts: Paul Zsolnay, Ernst Krenek, Anatole Fistoulari.

-- Someone else 08:06 Apr 1, 2003 (UTC)

[Was Alma not an pan-germanian ? "http://www.algonet.se/~hk-kyhle/stories/alma.html" says so. And the reason why she fled austria was since she opted the side of the jews much since Franz Werfel was jewish.]

Edited version of chronology by Knud Martner

(Knud (85.81.32.168) edited the version the chronology given above. Editing others' posts on talk pages is strictly forbidden by Talk Page guidelines, so I've reverted the changes and made a copy of Knud's version below TSP (talk) 14:48, 25 June 2019 (UTC))

Alma Schindler
————————————————————————————————————————————— 
Birth:	31 Aug 1879	Vienna, Austria
Death:	11 Dec 1964	New York
Burial:		Vienna, Austria
Burial Memo:	Grinzinger Friedhof, Vienna, Austria
Plot: Group 6, Row 6, Number 7
Father:	Emil Jakob Schindler (1842-1892)
Mother:	Anna Sofie Bergen (1857-1938)

Spouses
—————————————————————————————————————————————
1:	Gustav Mahler
Birth:	7 Jul 1860	Kalist, Bohemia
Death:	18 May 1911	Vienna, Austria 
Burial:	22 May 1911	Vienna, Austria
Burial Memo:	Grinzinger Friedhof, Vienna, Austria
Plot: Group 6, Row 7, No.1
Father:	Bernard Mahler (1822-1889)
Mother:	Marie Hermann (1832-1889)
Marriage:	9 Mar 1902	Vienna, Austria
    Children:	Maria Anna (3 Nov. 1902-12 July 1907)
                    Anna Justine (15 June 1904-3 June 1988)
—————————————————————————————————————————————
2:	Oskar Kokoschka
Birth:	1 Mar 1886	Pöchlarn
Death:	22 Feb 1980	
Unmarried:		first met in April 1912
—————————————————————————————————————————————
3:	Walter Gropius
Birth:	18 May 1883	Berlin, Germany
Death:	5 Jul 1969	Boston, Massachusetts
Burial Memo:	cremated
Marriage:	18 Aug 1915	
Divorce:	1 October 1920	
Children:	Manon (5 Oct. 1916-22 April 1935)
—————————————————————————————————————————————
4:	Franz Werfel
Birth:	10 Sep 1890	Austro-Hungary (later Czechoslovakia)
Death:	26 Aug 1945	Hollywood, California
Burial:		Vienna, Austria
Burial Memo:	Zentral Friedhof (Central Cemetery), Vienna, Austria
Plot: Group 32 C, Number 39
Marriage:	6 Jul 1929	
Children:	Martin Charles Johannes (2 August 1918-1919)
—————————————————————————————————————————————

Her Art

Is there no one who can elaborate on her other than her marriages and personal life? This article needs more information on her as a composer, painter (education, works, style, etc.) and whatever else occupied her creatively. I am going to put at least some information in the entry, but nothing more than a stub. scazza 18:21, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

• Go ahead, if you have anything. It's pretty clear that her "contributions" are already well-covered (or un-covered). Wahkeenah 18:34, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
  • • that may well be, but to have scant more than 'Also a painter, she was known as ambitious, and often described as power-hungry, in a section entitled 'artist' is pretty poor biography. that description could apply to anyone from Picasso to Pollock, and thus does not give us much of a sense of Mahler as an artist good OR bad. perhaps the section title should be changed; it could, after all, be anything, so why not POWER HUNGRY PSEUDO-ARTIST, if that's truly all there is?***

People like Alma Mahler Gropius Werfel make you realize how little you've accomplished??? It seems pretty clear from this:

"Last December 13th, there appeared in the newspapers the juiciest, spiciest, raciest obituary it has ever been my pleasure to read. It was that of a lady named Alma Mahler Gropius Werfel*, who had, in her lifetime, managed to acquire as lovers practically all of the top creative men in central Europe. And, among these lovers**, who were listed in the obituary, by the way, which is what made it so interesting, there were three whom she went so far as to marry: One of the leading composers of the day, Gustav Mahler, composer of Das Lied von der Erde*** and other light classics; one of the leading architects, Walter Gropius, of the Bauhaus school of design; and one of the leading writers, Franz Werfel, author of the Song of Bernadette and other masterpieces.

It's people like that who make you realize how little you've accomplished. It is a sobering thought, for example, that when Mozart was my age, he had been dead for two years!" (Tom Lehrer in the introduction to his song "Alma" DES ^(talk)_{DESiegel Contribs} 00:50, 16 August 2017 (UTC))

that he was referring to people like Gustav Mahler, Walter Gropius, Franz Werfel, and Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart.

...?

Her Names

I found, earlier today, in her What-lks-here,

• List of people by name: Mah-Mam
• List of people by name: Schi-Schl

and these Rdrs:

• Alma Schindler
• Alma Shindler
• Alma Mahler Gropius Werfel
• Alma Maria Mahler
• Alma Mahler Werfel

I added

• List of people by name: Grj-Grz#Grob - Grop
• List of people by name: Weo-Wer#Wep - Wer

and, after doing a 1st-draft of the "Alma name list" below:

• Alma Gropius
• Alma Mahler Gropius
• Alma Werfel

Alma name list as of 22:05, 28 February 2007 (UTC):

• List of people by name: Schi-Schl
  • Alma Schindler
  • Alma Shindler
• List of people by name: Mah-Mam
  • Alma Mahler (article)
  • Alma Maria Mahler
• List of people by name: Grj-Grz#Grob - Grop
  • Alma Gropius
  • Alma Mahler Gropius
• List of people by name: Weo-Wer#Wep - Wer
  • Alma Werfel
  • Alma Mahler Werfel
  • Alma Mahler Gropius Werfel

--Jerzy•t 22:05, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

That painting...

Can we please have that painting put somewhere else and replaced at the top by a *photo*? As portraits go, it is *abysmally bad*: I've never seen an image that looks *less* like the Alma of the photos... Pfistermeister (talk) 05:16, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Title of the article

There are many variations of her name used in the real world, but one I've never seen is the hyphenated "Mahler-Werfel". That implies that she used that precise formulation, and afaik she never did. Most commonly, it's "Alma Mahler", because Gustav was her first and most famous husband, and they would probably have remained married had he not died (too young); or, if he had died at a much later age, she would probably never have remarried. She died as the widow of Franz Werfel, so there's some merit in calling her "Mahler Werfel" (unhyphenated) - but not just "Werfel". "Alma Schindler Mahler Gropius Werfel" ticks all the boxes and gets the occasional airing, but only in the same sense that Elizabeth Taylor is sometimes called "Elizabeth Taylor Hilton Wilding Todd Fisher Burton Burton Warner Fortensky". Another option is just "Alma Schindler", because she's interesting and notable in her own right, not just because of the people she married and/or was associated with. Whatever we decide to call her, "Mahler-Werfel" has to go. -- JackofOz (talk) 00:43, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

I understand your concern, but do slow down with the "has to go" talk. It isn't that simple. You see the "Mahler-Werfel" formulation in recent scholarship (it surprises me very much that you've never seen it that way). See, for example, the Tagebuch-Suiten edition by Rode-Breymann and Beaumont (as well as other work by Rode-Breymann), the German one or the English one. The 1999 Fischer edition of her Mein Leben? As for whether she used it herself, I begin to doubt whether any of us have researched thoroughly enough to make any declarations right now. Dunkelweizen (talk) 01:24, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

What seems a bit odd to me is that she is referred to as 'Mahler-Werfel' throughout the article, even in the account of her life before she married Werfel. I guess there is a guideline about being consistent throughout an article, but it's kind of disconcerting to read phrases like 'Mahler-Werfel met and fell in love with the Prague-born poet and writer Franz Werfel' as if she's falling in love with a family member or someone she's already married. Elsewhere in the article she is referred to by her first name ('Alma and Franz traveled on to Portugal'.) Is it acceptable to refer to people by first name? If so, I would suggest doing so throughout the article, to avoid calling her 'Mahler-Werfel' before she ever had that name. --Angelastic (talk) 13:29, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

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Cultural Icon in the USA

There is nothing in this section that warrants the accolade "cultural icon". If no one can elaborate, i propose to rename it "Years in the USA" or something similarly neutral. Doceddi (talk) 13:28, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

Mahler and Freud

I removed a bit of text claiming "In fact, the only source for the Mahler-Freud meeting is a one-page account in Ernest Jones' biography of Freud (Ernest Jones, The Life and Work of Sigmund Freud, three volumes, 1953–1957, vol. 2, pp. 88–89, Basic Books, 1955; also in the abridged, one-volume edition, pp. 358–359, Basic Books, 1961)." There are plenty of references out there which seem to confirm the meeting between Gustav Mahler and Freud. If, however, it turns out they all stem from Jones and there is nothing else to directly corroborate Jones' testimony then feel free to reinstate it. Thank you, Bretonesque (talk) 23:43, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Popular Culture

What? No mention of Tom Lehrer? :D — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.233.90.196 (talk) 14:59, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

NPOV dispute - Biography

To put it simply, the Biography section of this article is a POV mess. Just look at this sentence: "It is most unfortunate that all of Alma’s biographers have accepted this unfounded "story" without questioning her preposterous allegation, because it is a disgusting and shameful lie which has now been thoroughly disproved (see the corresponding Wikipedia article on Emil Schindler). Disturbing and distastful is also the reading of Alma Mahler’s “obituary note” on her sick, helpless and innocent sister, then 45-years-old, who for a number of years had suffered from schizophrenia, in those days diagnosed as premature demens". Can someone fix this? --Joshualouie711^talk 01:05, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

Added information

I recently added extra information on Alma Mahler. I also deleted the information on her mother as it is not relevant to this page. I'm putting that information here to perhaps someone might better incorporate it within the article. Gandhi (BYU) (talk) 17:17, 12 January 2018 (UTC)

• Anna Sofie Schindler's parents were both Dutch immigrants, whether first or second generation is not known. Her father, Claus Jacob Ary Bergen (1817-1891), original name Bergk, came from the town of Bergen op Zoom in North Brabant (cf. Wiener Fremden-Blatt, 28 December 1878, p. 6). Nothing is known about the life of her mother, Metta Margaretha Charlotte Roggenkamp (1826-1902). The parents were married on 31 December 1853 in Hamburg, and between 1854 and 1869 Margaretha Bergen gave birth to at least nine children (3 boys and 6 girls) of which Anna Sofie was the second oldest (acc. to incomplete records kept in the Hamburg State Archives). How Ary Bergen earned his living is uncertain, but in 1867 he is recorded as an innkeeper, and c. 1869 he became owner of a beer brewery (cf. the Hamburg Adressbücher, 1867-1879). However, he went bankrupt in the aftermath of the Franco-Prussian War 1870-71 (cf. Alma Mahler-Werfel, Tagebuch-Suiten 1898-1902, Frankfurt 1997, p. 534).
• In her unpublished memoirs Der schimmernde Weg (1930, p. 427), Alma Mahler describes her mother as "Eine gesunde, kernige norddeutsche Mutter, die damals wahrscheinlich hübsch war, dies erkannte ich aus ihrer Wirkung auf Männer - mir gefiel sie rein exterieuristisch [äußerlich] nicht, weil mir ihr Gesicht ungeistig erschien." ["A healthy and robust North German mother, who at that time was probably pretty - this I recognized from the effect she had on men - but I took a dislike of her outward appearance because her face did not appear to be an intellectual one."] It was however precisely these qualities that Emil Schindler is said to have admired and appreciated with his wife.
• One and a half months after Alma's birth Schindler confided to his diary: "mein Kind ist prächtig ausgestattet, mein Heim sieht nach und nach ganz nett aus, meine Verhältnisse sind momentan besser geworden, der Hausstand solider (…) Ein Weib wie das meine finde ich nicht mehr." ["My child is splendidly equipped, my home is little by little looking very nice, for the present my conditions have improved, and my household become more solid (...). A wife like mine I shall never find again."] (Vienna, 15 October 1879. Citations from Carl Moll's Emil Jakob Schindler. Vienna 1930, pp. 24-26).
• By late January 1880 it became clear that Anna Schindler was pregnant again, and on 16 August that year she gave birth to a second daughter who was christened Margaretha [Grethe] Julie (like Alma also named after their maternal grandmother, and Julie after her paternal aunt). The circumstances regarding the conception of Grethe in the late fall of 1879, have been much discussed, owing solely to her elder sister who, in her unpublished memoirs from 1930, claims that Grethe's biological father was not Schindler but his friend and colleague, the painter Julius Viktor Berger (1850-1902). Mahler's "obituary note" on her sick sister, then 45-years-old, who for a number of years had suffered from schizophrenia, in those days diagnosed as premature dementia, reads as follows:

• "Mit dieser unsinnigen Schwester verband mich nichts als Mitleid, manchmal sogar ungeduldiger Hass. Ich wusste damals [1925] noch nicht, dass sie nicht das Kind meines Vaters war, aber ich sah, wie er sie hasste und mich liebte, und so hasste ich sie nun auch und liebte ihn." ["Nothing but pity attached me to this insane sister, occasionally even with impatient hate. At that time I didn't yet know that she wasn't my father's child, but I noticed how he hated her and loved me, and therefore I also hated her and loved him".]
• It is an unsolved mystery that the Schindler couple after 1880 did not have any more children. After all they lived together for another twelve years, and Anna Schindler was only 23 years old at the birth of her second child. In her unpublished memoirs (Der schimmernde Weg, 1930) Alma Mahler hints that her father suffered from syphilis and that was the cause of sister Grethe's later diagnosed disease Dementia praecox (which from a medical point of view is sheer nonsense). During the months following Alma's birth it is known from Schindler's diary that he was refused admission to the bed of his wife, and in sheer despair he might have visited a brothel and had contracted syphilis. Although later in life Mahler characterized her upbringing as privileged, many biographies recount that the family to have been only moderately successful. After her father's death (1892), her mother married her late husband's former pupil, Carl Moll, who was a co-founder of the Vienna Secession. Alma Schindler and her sister Grethe began taking piano lessons at an early age from Miss Adele Mandlick (later married Radnitzky, 1864-1932). Both girls, respectively nine and eight years old, appeared in public for the first time on 10 April 1890 at a student's concert in Vienna, and eventually trained under Zemlinsky. Her father died when she was 13 years old.
• During the months following Alma's birth it is known from Schindler's diary that he was refused admission to the bed of his wife, and in sheer despair he might have visited a brothel and had contracted syphilis. Although later in life Mahler characterized her upbringing as privileged, many biographies recount that the family to have been only moderately successful. After her father's death (1892), her mother married her late husband's former pupil, Carl Moll, who was a co-founder of the Vienna Secession. Alma Schindler and her sister Grethe began taking piano lessons at an early age from Miss Adele Mandlick (later married Radnitzky, 1864-1932). Both girls, respectively nine and eight years old, appeared in public for the first time on 10 April 1890 at a student's concert in Vienna, and eventually trained under Zemlinsky. Her father died when she was 13 years old.

References

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Alma Mahler/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Tim riley (talk · contribs) 14:49, 11 March 2018 (UTC)

Starting first read-through. Comments will follow a.s.a.p. Tim riley talk 14:49, 11 March 2018 (UTC)

Initial comments

There is some good stuff in this article, and I have enjoyed reading it, but it needs a lot of work before it meets GA standards.

First, there is the question of which language it is supposed to be in. At present the text switches between English and American spelling. Either is fine, but it must be consistent. (The convention is to stick with whichever spelling was first used in the various revisions of the article or else to check that other editors are all right about changing, if changing is what seems wanted. Looking at the edit history of this article I don't envisage any strong views being voiced either way.)

Secondly, the referencing is inadequate. References must be verifiable, and many of these are not. Take for example Refs 1 a-i which at various points refer to no page at all or to page ranges of up to 74 pages. How is anyone to verify that? Similar objections apply to Refs 2 a-i. Refs 3 a-b lead to a dead link. Refs 4 a-b point to a site that I remain to be convinced meets the conditions to qualify as a reliable source. Ref 5 gives the author's surname as given name and vice versa, spells the given name wrongly, and spells the subject’s name wrongly. Ref 7 refers to the same website as ref 4, but is formatted quite differently. Ref 10 supposedly supports mention of the Sobol play but in fact refers to the Russell film. The link at Ref 12 doesn't open. Ref 16 is a third incompatibly formatted link to the play site. Refs 20 and 21 are not references but uncited statements. No sources are cited in the Works section.

The ISBNs need attention. They should be properly hyphenated, and in 13-digit form. (A helpful tool is available here: https://www.isbn.org/ISBN_converter.) There is no ISBN given for the book cited at refs 2 a-i (it is 978-1-55553-789-0).

I am putting the review on formal hold for a week to give the nominator time to address these points. If that is done satisfactorily we can move on to the prose, which needs some work, but we can return to that in due course. – Tim riley talk 15:59, 11 March 2018 (UTC)

Tim riley, I will correct the references and let you know when I finish. Thank you for reviewing this article. Gandhi (BYU) (talk) 14:29, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

I note some improvements, but the above points are far from completely dealt with. I'll close the review in a day or two, one way or the other. Tim riley talk 12:19, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

Tim riley, I have reworked references and deleted unreliable sources. I also used the Wikipedia:ISBN page to correct the ISBN numbers. If this looks fine to you, let's move on to the prose. Thanks!Gandhi (BYU) (talk) 15:50, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

Rereading, I see a few points where the prose could be improved, but the GA prose standard is "clear and concise, and the spelling and grammar correct", which this article meets, in my view. So that now the references are sorted out, I think we can proceed to promotion. Tim riley talk 12:26, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Overall summary

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

1. Is it reasonably well written?

   A. Prose quality:

   B. MoS compliance for lead, layout, words to watch, fiction, and lists:

2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?

   A. References to sources:

   Well referenced.

   B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:

   Well referenced.

   C. No original research:

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. Major aspects:

   B. Focused:

4. Is it neutral?

   Fair representation without bias:

5. Is it stable?

   No edit wars, etc:

6. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?

   A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:

   Well illustrated.

   B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:

   Well illustrated.

7. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

Accuracy dispute: Marriage to Mahler

The section on her marriage to Mahler currently says: The terms of Alma's marriage to Gustav were that she would abandon her own interest in composing. Artistically stifled herself, she embraced her role as a loving wife and supporter of Mahler's music.<ref name="Alma Mahler Muse to Genius" /> When I was doing research for the Mahler on the Couch I read two sources which said this was a myth that had been spread by Alma in later years, and all sources saying so ultimately derive from her statements. I gather that there is scholarly dispute on the point. I can't quote sources for this off my head, but can probably find them. But this is a significant issue, and is currently a hook for DYK. DES ^(talk)_{DESiegel Contribs} 01:31, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

See Alma Problem. DES ^(talk)_{DESiegel Contribs} 01:38, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

Later Alma put the legend into the world – and that is what makes it so hard to fathom the truth of her entries – that Mahler had forbidden her from composing. Today we can see from Mahler's Dresden letter just how groundless this claim is.

• Gandhi (BYU) would you care to comment? DES ^(talk)_{DESiegel Contribs} 06:42, 25 April 2018 (UTC)

DES, these quotes from the Dresden letter implies Alma knew Gustav would prevent her from composing but still chose to marry him.

• "Would it mean the destruction of your life and would you feel you were having to forego an indispensable highlight of your existence if you were to give up your music in order to possess and also to be mind instead?
• "The role of "composer," the "worker's" world, falls to me - yours is that of the loving companion and understanding partner!"
• "You must give yourself to me unconditionally, shape your future life, in every detail, entirely in accordance with my needs and desire nothing in return save my love"

Muse to Genius further analyzes the implications of the letter. Gustav gave Alma an ultimatum; if she chose to marry him, Alma was forbidden to compose. I believe the "legend" is the assumption that she didn't know what she was getting herself in to. She definitely understood the conditions of their marriage. In Alma Mahler: Muse to Genius, Monson writes "Alma had decided to answer Gustav at once, on the schedule he had proposed, agreeing to his stipulations." However, Gustav did allow Mahler to compose later in life after visiting with Freud. I do not believe there is an issue but it is a complex situation.Gandhi (BYU) (talk) 14:15, 30 April 2018 (UTC)

Gandhi (BYU), Hilmes (page 43) appears to take a different view, that Mahler disapproved of Alma's musical work, but would not forbid it. In addition to the quote above saying that the idea that Mahler had forbidden her from composing was groundless and a legand Hilmes goes on to say that Mahler neither decreed a prohibition, nor did he force her to make a decision, the consequences of which could not have been clear to her. I take it that this means that there is a genuine dispute among the scholars. This is a much studied subject, and we cannot base the article on a single source when other sources disagrewe. i do not read German, and so cannot read the actual letter in the original. In any case, we should not make our own interpretations of such a document -- that would be original research. Instead we must follow the scholarly consensus if there is one, or report fully on the various scholarly views of the matter. Currently we seem to be following one viewq while ignoring another different view held by a respected scholar, and I believe shared by others, although I will need to find sources to document that. DES ^(talk)_{DESiegel Contribs} 15:39, 30 April 2018 (UTC)

DES, then perhaps the best course of action is to plainly explain the conflicting views of scholars on this detail. I'll add some information which you are welcome to review.Gandhi (BYU) (talk) 15:55, 30 April 2018 (UTC)

Yes, i think that would be the way to go, Gandhi (BYU). If additional reliable scholarly sources which discuss this specific issue can be found, beyond Monson and Hilmes, citing them would be a good idea, in my view. Note that this point is currently mentioned in the lead section, which will need to be altered to conform to the more detailed coverage in the section. Thank you. DES ^(talk)_{DESiegel Contribs} 16:32, 30 April 2018 (UTC)

DES, I have made some changes to the first paragraph of Marriage to Gustav Mahler. If there is anything else that needs to be changed let me know! Gandhi (BYU) (talk) 15:29, 2 May 2018 (UTC)

Thank you, Gandhi (BYU). I added a citation to the sentence about the scholarly dispute, removed the dispute tag, and made a change to the lead section so that it confirms tpo the revised " Marriage to Gustav Mahler" section. I think that will sufficiently deal with thsi issue. Thanks for your assistance and for the very civil discussion. DES ^(talk)_{DESiegel Contribs} 16:14, 2 May 2018 (UTC)

References

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

• Portrait of Alma Mahler by Oskar Kokoschka, 1912, oil on canvas - National Museum of Modern Art, Tokyo - DSC06553.JPG

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 19:06, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

A Chronological List of Her Works By Knud Martner (Copenhagen 2019)

Foreword

Never before in the history of music has so much been written about a composer who has left as few compositions as Alma Schindler-Mahler. However, it's mostly not about the artist, the composer and her works, about which the nine female and three male biographers so far have published, but rather about the human being, the personality of Alma Schindler-Mahler, about her three husbands and some lovers, what she has said and wrote about this and that. It's almost to be compared like murdering her character. But we must take her SERIOUSLY for once, the artist and the composer Alma Schindler-Mahler, who has been unjustly demonized. In order to do that, I have tried to compile a chronological list of her compositions, both the traditional and the lost ones, including her various poems and book publications.

The most reliable books on Alma Mahler-Schindler are the two published by Professor Susanne Rode-Breymann in 1999 and 2014, respectively, both only in German. She had also attempted to make a comprehensive list of Alma’s works. We do not always agree, but in general we do. The books by the late Karen Monson and by Susanne Keegan are poorly researched and are both filled with mistakes. The biography by the late Bernard Wessling one should avoid reading, because he mostly made up his own stories and in general is extremely unreliable.

This catalogue of Alma Schindler-Mahler’s [Mahler-Werfel] works is a reconstruction and is mainly based on her „Tagebuch-Suiten 1898-1902" (Frankfurt/M 1997) [Diaries] and some other relevant sources. It should be emphasized that this is only an „attempt" because there are still many outstanding questions that are currently unanswerable. We have f. x. not the slightest idea of the scope of works Alma Schindler did compose in the decade before the beginning of her published Diaries on 25 January 1898. In her autobiography, „Mein Leben" (1960) she asserts that she did begin composing at the age of eighth, during a stay on the Greek island of Corfu, from January through March 1888, together with her parents, her younger sister, and her father's pupil, Carl Moll.

After Alma Schindler in July 1893 (or 1894) had finished the compulsory 8-year elementary school [Volksschule] (according to the latest Austrian Teaching Act of 1869), she began privately studying composition with Josef Labor (1842-1924), from the autumn of 1894 (or 1895) and until spring 1901, in all six years. However, she only had one weekly lesson with him, which hardly can be described as a serious study. Why she didn’t enrol at f. x. the famous Viennese Music Conservatory, lasting only 3 years, with daily lessons from Monday through Saturday, may seem puzzling, but firstly she probably did not get the grades enough at her school graduation, and secondly, she probably did not have the skills in music theory, which were required for admission to the Conservatory.

A summary of Alma Schindler’s music study by Josef Labor 1898-1901:

From approximately October to June, Alma Schindler usually received composition lessons from Josef Labor every Tuesday morning (the hours each time is unknown), for the last time on 23 April 1901. This she had apparently practiced for six years, approximately since the autumn of 1894 (or perhaps 1895). In her Diaries from 25 January 1898 to 23 April 1901 (that's 44 months and 22 days, or 1,337 days) she has recorded 72 lessons with Josef Labor. Season 1897/98 (lasting only 4 Months): 13 lessons; 1898/99 (4 Months): 13 lessons; 1899/00 (6 Months): 26 lessons, and finally 1899/01 (8 Months): 20 lessons.

Note: Schindler’s two farewell visits on the 8th and 15th October 1901 are for obvious reasons excluded. If the above figures was the norm for Alma Schindler's diligence, then she would have received about 150-200 lessons during her six-year study by Josef Labor. However, if she had visited him every Tuesday of the three and a half years of school during the said period, the number of her lessons would theoretically be 105, excluding various holidays.

Of these possible 105 lessons, 27 are questionable for the following three reasons: a) On 9 Tuesdays Alma Schindler's Diary is simply blank.

b) Josef Labor is not mentioned on 8 Tuesdays. Whether for oblivion or oversight, it is impossible to say. However, three times Alma Schindler was excused: on 31 May 1898 she was on Pentecost visit to the village of Payerbach, and twice (12 February1901 and 16 April1901) she was obviously ill.

c) Ten Tuesday entries have been omitted by the editors of the Diaries because of „trivialities". Whether any lessons with Josef Labor are recorded must be left open (cf. her diaries, p. 759). In total, 169 journal entries are omitted for this reason.

For the general picture of Alma Schindler's everyday life in these years, it is also valuable to know that she spent about 490 days (= 16 months) on vacation outside Vienna within the specified period of 1,337 days. That does not mean that she was creatively idle. On the contrary, many of her compositions were written during her holidays (just like her future husband Gustav Mahler), but she is and remains no less a „composer without a goal and without an end".

Alma Schindler was first and foremost a song composer who did set about 20 different poets in music. In addition to the „old masters" such as Goethe (4 poets) and Heine (7), she was inspired by many contemporary poets, such as Rilke (7), Bierbaum (3), Falke and Dehmel (4 each), and some today completely forgotten writers like Leo Greiner (4), Anna Ritter (2), Anna Wohlgemuth, Otto Julius Thörner, Paul Althof and Max Weyrauther (1 each). Her musical language changed radically after Mahler’s death, became almost shrilly, with her four last (known) songs to texts by Novalis (2), Hölderlin and Franz Werfel (1 each), which she composed around 1912, and in 1915. From September 1919 onwards she devoted herself exclusively to her activities as editor of Gustav Mahler’s letters to his friends, as well as to her, and not least her two autobiographies.

As far as her choice of poems is concerned, it seems as if Alma Schindler by chance found the poems she composed in various German weekly magazines, which she read during her visits to Drs. Jus. Theobald Pollak (1855-1912), a childhood friend of her stepfather Carl Moll. Occasionally she copied the poems in her diary for later use, while others composed them immediately and on the spot - as if struck by a sudden inspiration - „in 5 minutes," as she wrote on January 7, 1899.

All of her„Lieder und Gesänge" are originally composed with piano accompaniment. Three of them (Nos. 60, 99 and 101) also once existed with orchestral accompaniment, though not by Alma Mahler (she did not have the skills), but they were orchestrated at her express request in 1924 by Danish composer Paul v. Klenau (1883-1946), possibly with the help of Alban Berg. We will probably never know for sure, because the scores and orchestral parts seem to have vanished. The three „Gesänge” were first performed on 22 September 1924 in Vienna, and repeated on 27 February 192 (in a radio broadcast in Vienna). According to an advertisement by the music publisher J. Weinberger in 1924, the firm also intended to release all five songs with orchestral accompaniment, but which was apparently abandoned.

Unfortunately, from the perspective of a historian, Alma Schindler was a disappointingly bad "bookkeeper" regarding her own compositions, and one wonders how she herself was able to account for them. In fact, she could not do it either, one learns through a meticulous reading of her diaries.

She was neither particularly systematic nor methodical about the exact identification of her compositions. For example, has she recorded 27 songs without giving any information about the poems or the poets (apart from three, where only the poets are mentioned).

On the other hand, did she publish several songs that are not at all mentioned in the diaries, e. g. ASW 92-96. These five songs (and many more) might be identical to some of the 27 songs, and accordingly the number of their compositions should be less (or perhaps even larger?) than this catalogue implies. In addition, two songs are in my opinion identical (ASW 29 and 92), but are still listed as two individual songs until further notice.

In her autobiography, she speaks of „my hundreds of songs”, but in the three and a half years that her diaries cover, only 69 have been recorded. Possibly, it is one of her usual exaggerations, or perhaps she has failed, to record a large number of compositions in her diaries, or perhaps the „missing" compositions were composed in the years before 1898.

A carefully study of the following chronological list one also notices with surprise that very often there are big gaps between her recordings of new compositions. For example, in the five months from 26 June to 22 November 1898 (ASW 10-11) no new compositions are recorded at all. However, it's hard to imagine that she did not compose anything during such a long period.

With a very few exceptions, all Alma Schindler-Mahler’s original manuscripts may be considered lost, no doubt destroyed by herself in her old days.

Each work has been provided with an ASW-Number (abbreviation for „Alma Schindler Werkverzeichnis"), and followed by the date of composition (day and month) - as far as it is known.

An asterisk * indicates that the work was composed in the immediate time prior to the given date.

The published works are marked with the symbol ¶. (The place and year of the first publication are added in brackets).

As already said all the given dates can be verified by reading Alma’s Diaries in the original German edition.

1 [1896] ¶Abendsonnenschein, a poem (Frankfurt/M 1960)

1898

2 02.02. Wandrers Nachtlied (Johann Wolfgang v. Goethe), Lied

3 14.03.* Lied (author & poem unknown)

4 14.03.* Lied (author & poem unknown)

5 17.03. Gleich und gleich (J. W. v. Goethe), Lied

6 14.04. Piano Sonata [No. 1 (1st mov.)], Piano

7 11.05. Lied (author & poem unknown)

8 05.06. Variations on an original theme [No. 1], Piano

9 19.06. Vom Küssen (Anna Ritter), Lied

10 26.06. Lehnen im Abendgarten beide (Rainer Maria Rilke), Lied

11 22.11. Lied (author & poem unknown)

12 22.11.* Piano Sonata [No. 2 (2 movts. only)], Piano

13 30.11. Wie es gieng (Anna Wohlgemuth), Lied

14 15.12. Vom Küssen, Piano (perhaps a paraphrase on No. 9)

15 20.12. Lied (author & poem unknown)

16 22.12. Adagio [No. 1], Piano

17 27.12. Die Frühlingsnacht (Max Weyrauther), Lied

18 28.12. Gib Dich darein (Gustav Falke), Lied

19 30.12. Adagio [No. 2], Piano

1899

20 05.01. Nicht lange täuschte mich das Glück (Heinrich Heine), Lied

21 07.01. ¶Ich wandle unter Blumen (H. Heine), Lied

22 24.01.* Lied (author & poem unknown)

23 24.01. Lied (H. Heine; poem unknown)

24 27.01. Lied (author & poem unknown)

25 29.01. Lied (author & poem unknown)

26a-d 03.02. Four Lieder (authors & poems unknown)

27 14.02. - 06.03: Piano Pieces [Nos. 1-3]

28 20.05. Fantasia, Piano

29 20.05. ¶Französisches Wiegenlied (Otto Erich Hartleben), Lied (no doubt identical with No. 92)

30 02.06. Hinaus (Otto Thörner, not Körner as is stated in her Diaries), Lied

31 05.06. Morgen (author & poem unknown, no doubt by John Henry Mackay), Lied

32 12.06. Die Nixe (probably by Gustav Falke), Lied

33 27.06. Piano Sonata [No. 3 (1st mov.)] in F major, Piano

34 08.07. - 20.08: „Italien”, Suite (2 or 3 pieces), Piano

35 12.07. Etude [No. 1], Piano

36 20.08.* Erinnerung (probably by Rainer M. Rilke), Lied

37 31.08. Trio for Piano, Violin and Cello (unfinished)

38 15.09. ¶Einsamer Gang (Leo Greiner), Lied (publ. London 2018)

39 16.09. Tränenkinder (probably by Leo Greiner?), Lied

40 20.09. Ich will den Sturm (Anna Ritter), Lied

41 03.10. Qual (Paul Althof alias Alice Gurschner), Lied

42 03.10. Etude [No. 2], Piano

43 07.10. Ich trat in jene Hallen (H. Heine), Lied

44 11.10. [No. 1] for Violin and Piano

45 12.10. Lied (H. Ibsen; poem unknown)

46 30.11. In meiner Erinn’rung (H. Heine), Lied

47 11.12. Sonata [No. 2] for Violin and Piano

1900

48 09.01. 5 Schilflieder (Nicolaus Lenau), Lied cycle (probably unfinished)

49 21.01.* Stumme Liebe (N. Lenau), Lied

50 12.02. Piano Piece [No.1]

51 15.02. Rhapsody, Piano

52 03.03.* Adagio [No. 3], Piano

53 19.03.¶Meine Nächte (L. Greiner), Lied (Bryn Mawr 2000; in this edition Rilke is given as the poet)

54 20.03. Lied (author & poem unknown)

55 30.03. Und reden sie dir jetzt von Schande (R. M. Rilke), Lied

56 15.05.* Lied (author & poem unknown)

57 15.05.* Lied (author & poen unknown)

58 19.05. - 08.06: Theme and 5 Variations [No. 2], Piano

59 08.06.* Lied (author & poem unknown)

60 16.06.* ¶Lobgesang (Richard Dehmel), Gesang (also with orchestral acc.)(Vienna 1924)

61 16.06.*Engelsgesang (R. M. Rilke; title disambiguos), Lied

62a 05.08. ¶Bei dir ist es traut (H. Heine), Lied (Vienna 1910)

62b 05.08. Lied (R. M. Rilke; poem unknown)

62c 05.08. ¶Leise weht ein erstes Blühn (R. M. Rilke), Lied (Bryn Mawr 2000)

63 7.10. Fuge, Piano

64 20.10. Lied (author & poemunknown)

65 13.11. Piano Piece [No. 2]

66 16.11. Er ist's (Eduard Mörike), Lied

67 20.11.* Invention, Piano

68 20.11.* Novelette, Piano

69 20.11.* Unvermeidlich (J. W. v. Goethe), Lied

70 20.11.* Abend (probably by L. Greiner), Lied

1901'

71 07.01.* [Theme and] Variations [No. 3], Piano

72 10.02.* Piano Piece [No. 3]

73 15.03.* Adagio [Nr. 4], Piano

74 15.03.* Lied (author & poem unknown)

75 15.03.* Lied (author & poem unknown)

76 23.03. ¶Ekstase (O. J. Bierbaum), Gesang (Vienna 1924)

77 17.04. Rondo [No. 1], Piano

78 18.04.* Lied (author & poem unknown)

79 18.04.* Lied (author & poem unknown)

80 18.04.* Lied (author & poem unknown)

81 20.04.* Lied (author & poem unknown)

82 17.05.* Lied (author & poem unknown)

83 10.06.* First Act of the Opera, „Das Bergwerk zu Falun” (libretto by Hugo v. Hofmannsthal, after E. T. A. Hoffmann’s Novel „Die Bergwerke zu Falun”).

84 20.06. Piano Sonata [No. 4 (1st mov. only)], Piano

85 07.07.¶An die Kunst, a poem (Frankfurt 1997)

86 03.08. Chorus [No. 1] (G. Falke; poem unknown)

87 20.08. Andante, Piano

88 20.08.* “Überbrettl Duet” (author & poem unknown), for two voices (& Piano?)

89 20.08. Rondo [No. 2], Piano

90 20.08.* Chorus [No. 2] (author & poem unknown)

91 16.09. Chorus [No. 3] and Terzetto (J. W. v. Goethe; poem unknown)

92 Undated ¶In meines Vaters Garten (O. E. Hartleben); (no doubt identical with No. 29 (Vienna 1910)

93 Undated ¶Gefunden (O. J. Bierbaum; publ. as Laue Sommernacht), Lied (Vienna 1910)

Note: Possibly already composed between 6th and 24th January 1898.

94 Undated ¶Die stille Stadt (R. Dehmel), Lied (Vienna 1910)

95 Undated ¶Gesang am Morgen (G. Falke; erroneously entitled and published as „Erntelied“), Lied (Vienna 1915)

Note: Possibly already composed between 6th and 24th January 1898.

96 Undated ¶Licht in der Nacht (O. J. Bierbaum), Lied (Vienna 1915)

1910-11

97 Undated ¶Ansturm (R. Dehmel), Lied (Vienna 1915)

98 ¶Waldseligkeit (R. Dehmel), Lied (Vienna 1915)

Note. Both songs were probably composed in 1900 or 1901, and reworked in New York 1910-11.

1912

99 Undated ¶Hymne an die Nacht (Novalis), Gesang (Vienna 1924)

100 Undated ¶Hymne (Hymnus) (Novalis), Gesang (also with orchestral acc.) Vienna 1924)

101 Undated Hälfte des Lebens (Hölderlin), Lied

Note: Nos. 99 and 101 are in the manuscripts dedicated to Helene Berg, who Alma Mahler first met in 1911.

1915

102 85.81.32.168 (talk) 09:42, 9 July 2019 (UTC)[May-June] ¶Der Erkennende (Franz Werfel), Gesang (also with orchestral acc.)

Alma M. Mahler as author and editor

103 [1919-24] Gustav Mahler: Briefe 1879-1911 (Vienna 1924; in English 1979, expanded edition)

104 Gustav Mahler: Tenth Symphony (in facsimile) (Vienna 1924)

105 [1940] Gustav Mahler: Erinnerungen und Briefe (in German 1940; in English 1946 (abridged); (complete) 1968, last revised 1991 by Donald Mitchell & Knud Martner)

106 [1942] Alle Muskeln werden länger, poem (1942; publ. 1960)

107 [1958] And the Bridge is Love (autobiography) (1958)

108 [1960] Mein Leben (autobiography) (1960)

Posthumous publications

109 Correspondence with Friedrich Torberg [between 1941-1950] (in German 1987)

110 „Tagebuch-Suiten 1898-1902“ (in German 1997; in English 1999: abridged)

111 Correspondence with Alban and Helene Berg [1911-1964] (in German 2008)

112 Correspondence with Arnold Schönberg [1911-1950] (in German 2013)

Note: Alma Mahler’s Correspondence with Walter Gropius [1910-60] is currently in preparation.

85.81.32.168 (talk) 09:07, 25 June 2019 (UTC) K. Martner13:48, 28 June 2019 (UTC)85.81.32.168 (talk)K. Martner 85.81.32.168 (talk) 09:26, 9 July 2019 (UTC) K. Martner

Copyvio?

If the above is copied directly from its source and was published this year, it is a copyright violation. Please remove it. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 16:49, 11 July 2019 (UTC)

Dear Rachel Helps, why are you so drastic? This is just my personal rating of the given source, i.e. the Diaries of Alma Schindler-Mahler. Everyone can read them and draw their own conclusions. Many have already done so and have come to different conclusions than me. Sincerely Knud Martner

85.81.32.168 (talk) 19:20, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

Hi, I was confused because it's pretty unusual to start one's comments on a talk page with a section entitled "Forward." Most comments on a talk page are made in response to other users. If you're an Alma Mahler scholar and this is something you've published in another venue, we can cite it on the Alma Mahler page. Otherwise, I'm confused about why you wrote it here. Are you suggesting changes to the Alma Mahler Wikipedia page? Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 19:20, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

Nazi-looted Art

This section starts by saying there were five artworks, but only lists four. A fifth artwork -- a self-portrait by Alma's lover -- is mentioned later. Is this the fifth looted artwork? Is it really a self-portrait (a portrait of the artist himself)? There is a portrait of Alma by that artist included in the article. UnvoicedConsonant (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 18:17, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Gustav's insistence that she give up composing

In the lede we read that he insisted, as a condition of the marriage, that she give up composing music. That seems to be the received wisdom. But later on we're told:

• Gustav was not interested in Alma's composition, desiring for her to abandon composing. However, it is disputed among scholars whether or not Gustav outright forbade Alma Mahler to compose.

So, if it remains a matter of scholarly debate, we should not be so categorical in the lede. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 19:29, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

good point. I changed the wording of the lead a little. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 17:37, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

wrong numbers

Articles claim Gustav born 1860, Alma born 1879, and age differene 23 years - all 3 cannot be true 220.253.229.162 (talk) 10:02, 18 December 2022 (UTC)