Talk:Klaipėda

Translation of the Week

Note: Klaipeda is the current Translation of the week

• "Klaipėda ... is Lithuania's only seaport on the Baltic Sea." Probably true, but isn't "Klaipėda ... is Lithuania's only seaport, on the Baltic Sea." more valid?
• "Klaipeda was founded by Baltic tribes in the 12th century. ... This Baltic Sea harbor city was founded by the Teutonic Knights in 1252 ...". Are these contradictory or incomplete?
• Shouldn't Kurland be somewhere in the early history?

Aliter 22:21, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

founded ... in the 12th century ... harbor city was founded ... in 1252 — When I was translating it, it seemed like, in this instance and a couple others, the writer was trying to create a distinction between the port and the city, which isn't entirely upheld throughout the article. —Muke Tever 05:03, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I am just wondering why polish name of the city is given as if Poland and Poles had something to do with this city. This polish name then passed to all other translations:( It is as strange as to provide Lithuanian name for Riga or Tallinn in the articles about these cities Dirgela 14:24, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)

It is probably because Klaipeda was a city in the polish province of Ducal Prussia from 1525(1466) to 1660. Space Cadet 16:05, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)

It was called Memel at that time, the polish version of the name Klaipeda came into use somewhere in the 30ties or 50ties. Btw. following that logic we are missing the swedish and russian versions here, because both ruled the city for some time. I have nothing against poles, I just find it simply strange. It seems to me that the first version from which all "translation of the week" articles were translated was polish, therefore the polish name. Dirgela 06:24, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)

This has been an ongoing problem with Baltic articles: cities like Klaipeda/Memel, Kaunas/Kauno/Kovno, Gdansk/Danzig, Konigsberg/Kaliningrad etc. have legitimate recent-history long-term variants that were widely used. Some editors (usually mimicking what they were taught in local schools) then go back and apply arcane names used for a century 500 years ago to the primary list (or names used by a partner in a dual monsrachy, like Poland-Lithuania), which is confusing rather than clarifying.

We need to counsel people that examples should meet the criteria of the examples I named above, where the current name (e.g. Kaliningrad) and a name used for centuries (in this case, Konigsberg) should both be present, but all the other names used by countries that briefly ruled the city or aspired to rule it should not be present. Almost every major city east of the Oder-Neisse and west of Moscow has been under two or three different flags for a long period in the last 500 years... but not 10 flags. This case is part of the "Polish names added to Lithuanian cities" over-activity, but you can find lots of other cases where the nationalities change but the problem is the same. Coll7 23:55, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Did Someone Use A Bad Translator?

The last two paragraphs are awful, they don't even follow basic English grammar. I will have to change this.

Translation of the century

These words were actually in the article itself, but I thought Talk would be a more fitting place for them. Kelisi 20:02, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Please correct the grammar of the following sentences:

The occurrence of building, subsequent nationalization and the conviction of initiators of this building of the Maria, Queen of Peace, Catholic Church in 1957–1962, made a noise in Lithuania, argues for it. A cultural activity was leaven by attempts of the town administration in 1971–1975 with foundation of affiliated societies of the Pedagogical University of Šiauliai and the National Conservatory of Lithuania in Klaipėda. This undertaking formed the stratum of humanitarian clerisy, injected citified self-immanence, so necessary for technological Klaipėda. These faculties became a basis for establishing the University of Klaipėda in 1991.

I've just done some rather difficult grammar and syntax repair, but these lines have got me. Anyone?

How's the weather?

Better than the rest of the country? Mithridates 19:30, 23 January 2006 (UTC) No, and there storms from Baltic sea.its more temperate and humid.Rain/snow is common. High average 27 C in July? Maybe in milan, not in Klaipeda.

References

In making some changes to this article I have relied on several English language books. English historians by and large tend not to entertain the chronic nationalistic tendancies (and 'revisions') of the Poles and Lithuanians and so we gather a more balanced factual view. It was stated that Memel, as we know it, was founded by the Livonian Order but this is not so. Several history books, notably professor Eric Christiansen's brilliant The Northern Crusades - The Baltic and the Catholic Frontier 1100-1525, make it quite clear that the fortresses at both Georgenburg and Memel were founded alone by the Teutonic Knights of Prussia, not the Brothers of The Sword. Moreover, The Chronicle of Henry of Livonia (or Henricus Lettus) doesn't mention Memel at all. According to countless atlases and maps I have looked at there is no mention of something called the "Curonian Spit", only the Kurische Nehrung, described by the great Baedeker as "a narrow strip of sand, separating the Kurische Haff from the Baltic and extending to Memel". Given that all the atlases also say that, and given that this territory was German (in some form or another)from 1252 to 1922 and again from 1939-45, how can the rest of the world be expected to identify it from an unknown name? This is the sort of problem we have with places like Danzig and Stettin, known by those names in Britain since the Dark Ages, and now with unrecognisable and unpronouncable names. It seems to me that cartographers must adopt the old concept of putting the historic names in brackets if history students are able to make any sense of what they are studying. It also seems to me that if articles such as this are speaking historically they should have the historic name in the article, not the new name. (I am inclined to laugh slightly, as it would appear that Kurland or Courland is a name given by the Knights also). It is also just laughable to speak of an "army" of the scattered tribes in Samland, whose numbers in total were minute. 213.122.49.13 15:27, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

I broke the history section up into relevant subheaders because it was unwieldy before. I moved the names paragraph to its own subheader, which other articles already have (Gdańsk, Toruń). I removed the date range of German ownership from the introduction, as it is unnecessary and lacked the Lithuanian years.

"Curonian Spit" is the currently accepted English name for Kurische Nehrung, and Wikipedia rules say to use English. If you feel that Wikipedia should use Kurische Nehrung instead of Curonian Spit, you should address that at its own article, not here.

Christiansen does not mention the Livonians being in Memel, but William Urban does in The Teutonic Knights: A Military History. Discussing the 1328 campaign by Grand Master Werner von Orseln, Urban writes, "Not realising what he had taken on, Werner proceeded with plans to transfer his forces east for an advance into Samogitia. Replacing the garrison of Livonian knights in Memel with Prussian knights gave the Livonian master additional troops for his siege of Riga; also, it made it easier for the Prussian marshal to co-ordinate operations up the Nemunas River" (p. 121). This link mentions them, sourced by the Arbeitsgemeinschaft der Memellandkreise e.V. This link also mentions them. Olessi 19:51, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

The German-language version of Klaipeda's website also mentions the Livonians.[1] Olessi 20:36, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

An interesting discussion. Christiansen is a Fellow of Oxford University and considered an expert in this subject. His research is magnificent. Not sure who William Urban actually is, although his account of the Livonian wars in The Baltic Crusade is a good read. But Krollmann's The Teutonic Order in Prussia (Elbing, 1938) states categorically that Memel is a Teutonic Knights foundation (as does von Treitschke). The preamble to the Versaille discussions states that "Memel was founded in 1252 by the Teutonic Knights" (refer: The Peace Settlement in the Polish-German Borderlands, Professor Ian F.D.Morrow, 1936). Given the degrees of cop-operation between the two, related, Orders it is probable that the northern Order may have garrisoned Memel from time to time in order to release Teutonic Knights for crusades against the Lithuanians and Pskovians. But it was a Teutonic Knights castle.

Whilst this may indeed be the English-language Wikipedia there are a great many foreign names which have never been changed into an English equivalent. "Curonian" is definitely NOT English, but an invention. The Encyclopaedia Britannica (A & C Black, London) produced a huge set of finely detailed maps in 1903, and whilst they refer to a great many foreign names (such as East Prussia instead of Ost Preussen), Konigsberg, for instance, was never changed from its German name. This also applies to the Kurische Nehrung peninsular which, since the middle of the 13th century has been called that in all atlases in Britain, including even our Robinson's Atlas of 1939. The simple fact is that you cannot hope to erase almost 700 years of German culture from this region in this silly way. Its time to grow up. I'm 100% behind our anonymous friend, above. Christchurch 09:03, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

By 1252 the Livonian Order had been absorbed into the Teutonic Knights, so the aforementioned authors are correct in Memel being founded by the "Teutonic Knights", (although initially garrisoned by members of the Livonian branch instead of Prussian branch). Regarding geographic names, if you feel that "Curonian Spit" should be at "Kurische Nehrung" instead, feel free to raise that suggestion at Talk:Curonian Spit. However, until it were to change, articles referencing the peninsula should use its current spelling, Curonian Spit.Olessi 16:35, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Hahaha. our anonymous friend. I shall play that game as well. The chronic German revisionism that is rampant throughout Wikipedia and elsewhere is pitiful, *especially* when you go around making accusations against others. Your projection of your modern jingoist views onto history is so sad. If you read Goebbels' propaganda tactics, the similarities are outstanding. And what is this '700 years of German culture'? If that's not a laughably sad Bismarkian/Hitlerian mischaracterisation, I don't know what is. I think you better hurry . You are late to your SdP meeting. Also, while you'd hope for an impartial view from a British historian, you will sometime painfully see the prussophilia/Brussells agenda shining right through. Your friend, Anonymous II

Lithuanian / German

It's valid that this article makes clear that Memel/Klaipeda was indeed a largely German city ethnically for most of its history. I've been there and seen the remnants of its German history. However, the article fails to mention that the city of Memel and the Memelland had a mixed German/Lithuanian population. Although most of the "Preussisch Litauisch" (Lithuanian-Prussian) inhabitants were to some extent culturally Germanized, i.e. Protestant, they continued to speak Lithuanian in their homes and maintained an identity distinct from the Prussians across the Memel/Neman River. After WWII, a number of them returned to their homes and were accepted as Lithuanian citizens. Cf. "Paradiesstrasse," by Ulla Lachauer.

Also, Klaipeda today has a large container port that is vital to Lithuania's foreign trade.

Sca 00:24, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Memel town?

Why should there be a disclaimer for "Memel town"? The primary meaning of "Memel" in English is the city, and hence should redirect to Klaipėda. Situations like this are why Template:Redirect was created in the first place. Olessi 20:28, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Memel currently redirects to Memel (disambiguation), which is against the Manual of Style. Either "Memel" should be the disambiguation page, or Memel should redirect to Klaipėda and an Other Uses Template should be included. My preference is for the latter. Olessi 18:00, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Anyone? Olessi 15:10, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

As discussed before at Talk:Memel (disambiguation), Memel needs to be an article that discusses the various meanings, see also EB which has 5 different articles. Philip Baird Shearer had moved Memel to Memel (disambiguation). It should not be a simple dab-page, though, and certainly not be "buried" as redirect to Klaipeda only, which is simply wrong. --Matthead 18:59, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

You've mentioned that before, and it seems Philip and I have agreed to disagree with you. Memel (disambiguation) would not be "buried" as a redirect on Klaipeda; it would be prominently displayed at the top of the article. However, if "Memel" is NOT a redirect to Klaipeda, then "Memel" should be the disambiguation page, not "Memel (disambiguation)". I see no reason to have "disambiguation" as part of the namespace title when it is not actually disambiguating from "Memel". Very few people are going to search for "Memel town", making the current disclaimer atop Klaipeda look awkward. Olessi 20:09, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

I believe Memel should simply redirect to Klaipeda and then Klaipeda should have that template "Memel redirects here. For other uses see here." Renata 21:39, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Notes

The population shrank from 207,100 in 1992 to 187,442 inhabitants in 2005. — Why?

— "Inhabitants" is superfluous.

"Framework architecture" is generally known in English as "half-timbered construction."

Sca 22:07, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

What about the Jews?

My grandfather's family fled Memel in December 1939 to escape the Nazis. From what he's told me, the Jewish students were expelled from the schools about a year before that, and most of the Jews in the area fled around this time. I don't know enough details to write the history of this period, but it would be nice if someone could include a bit about it here.

probably exagerated myths (see Holocaust) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mizanthrop (talk • contribs) 10:33, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

good point! what about the entire second world war period? that's also missing in action

24.90.31.147 (talk) 17:20, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Adolf

I had to laugh when I read that "Chancellor" Adolf Hitler visited in '39! Hitler, one need hardly mention, is one of the most widely known figures in recent history; we don't need to identify him by one of his titles (later superseded by Führer), much less dignify him by making him sound like some ordinary government official. We wouldn't write about "General Secretary" Stalin, either, except perhaps in the context of a discussion of CPSU history. Deleted.

Sca 17:38, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Merge

I've merged Akropolis (Mall) to Klaipėda, per WP:LOCAL. —Quarl ^(talk) 2006-12-30 08:26Z

Names in soviet times

In soviet times russian name of Klaipeda - Клайпеда was simultaneously used and this is a fact. And I wonder why User:Iulius deletes this. Every street name was doubled in russian name, inscripts in road signs were in russian, because in Lithuanian SSR both languages lithuanian and russian were used. Is this so uncomfartable to admit?

Mayor's missing in the infobox

Is someone aware that mayor's name is missing in the infobox? NoTime 12:15, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Pronunciation

The audio file says something like /kleɪpɛdə/ while the text says /klaɪpɛdə/. Anybody know which is right? Are both used? Is one English, the other Lithuanian? Elphion (talk) 01:10, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Pronunciation is correct, and the text is correct and the same. Stress on the "i", not on the "a". It's correct in Lithuanian. Native speaker Lit (talk) 14:38, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

History section missing!

Why is that flawless history section gone ENTIRELY? The one who managed to remove it should write a summary in the page accordingly!Iulius (talk) 07:53, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

I just noticed this (actually, I found the strangely amputated history section lingering in its own page) and re-added the whole section. It had been split of by a user back in March 2009, probably with the never-realized intention to edit both articles into decent shape. As that has not happened, there seems to be no good reason for upholding the split. I don't think the Klaipėda page is overwhelmingly large with the history section included. --Hegvald (talk) 05:09, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Population in 1910

In the German Empire section two widely different figures are given for the 1910 population: 21,470 and 149,766. The second figure is claimed to be from the census and seems more credible, but could someone with knowledge fix it?Channelwatcher (talk) 14:14, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

NPOV

I've just finished reading a book on the German/Lithuanian conflict in the 30s and this article struck me as a very pro-German in its POV. Perhaps some balancing is in order? 79.188.142.250 (talk) 15:32, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

Good job! Thanks Renata3 (talk) for the changes. 178.73.24.75 (talk) 14:24, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Port of Memel / Klaipeda

There is a german wiki page for the former prussian director of the baltic region (1876-1892) and director of the port of memel Ludwig Hagen. He published some works about the port of Memel and saved the dunes at the northern split for what he got an memorial next to Smiltyne, the "Hagen`s Höh" / Hageno Kalnas BesHagNeu (talk) 19:34, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Coat of arms pre 1992

The coat of arms is described as being "reaffirmed" in 1992 but based on old seals, the latest of which was 1618. However, a 1970s edition of "Tarybų Lietuva" [2] (1'14") shows a monument which apparently commemorates the twinning of Klaipeda and Debrecen, and the coat of arms is very similar to its current form (the main content of this Youtube clip is about the Meridianas ship). The 1970s symbol has waves below the boat, which differs from Mickevicius' later interpretation (that was probably done after he reviewed the old seals himself). The T.L. films were presumably extremely politically correct by the standards of the day and would not have depicted symbols not approved of by the then government. An update by someone with access to better evidence, would enhance the article. 213.205.227.8 (talk) 23:51, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Don‘t know if this info is suitable for the article, someone with decent skills of EN language may add it (my skills are bad). Situation with that "soviet COA of Klaipėda" is that the first republican Heraldry Commission in the USSR was established within the Lithuanian SSR Ministry of Culture, in 1966. Some 46 coats of arms were recreated and affirmed by this Commission. Klaipėda's coat of arms was affirmed in 1969, design was created by Jonas Stumbras. The design featured a "heater shield" which in RUS wiki is also called Varangian, Normanian and Old Russian; this shape is also widely used in modern Russia. Most of current LT coats of arms have "traditional Iberian" shield. There is a reason for that, perhaps. So, back to 1970 – there was a song festival in July and there was a solemn march where people were carrying historical coats of arms of various towns. Very soon after that the work of the commission was discontinued, commission itself was annulled. So everything what was legal became illegal again. That's all. Some physical examples of some coats of arms kept to exist, they were called "historical emblems" or so. And they didn't strictly follow heraldic rules, so to speak. Hence the waves in Klaipėda's COA of the 1969. But generally public demonstration of heraldic symbols was perceived by Soviet government as a manifestation of nationalism, which was sort of remnant of capitalism, while soviet society was supposed to be a new kind of society, free from the past. Source of the information is, for example, a book by Edmundas Rimša "Heraldika. Iš praeities į dabartį", Vilnius, 2004, page 163; EN translation was published next year - "Heraldry: past to present", Vilnius, publisher Versus aureus, 2005, ISBN 9955-601-73-6. --Kazys (talk) 10:55, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

Improper Italicization

There is no grammatical or expository reason to italicize former German names of now-Polish, -Lithuanian or -Russian localities in the areas transferred under border changes promulgated at the Potsdam Conference. In English, italics usually denote foreign (non-English) words for things or concepts, but not place names. In German times, Klaipėda was officially Memel, not Memel, and the German name should not be italicized.

External links modified

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Origin of name

• I read somewhere that the name Memel came from Lithuanian or Old Prussian memelas meaning "sandbank". Anthony Appleyard (talk) 04:40, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

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What on earth does this mean?

"The population has shrunk from the city to its suburbs and the hinterland. "

I imagine that there should be two numbers following, thus: "...shrunk from [X] to [Y]..." However, this leaves us with a hanging fragment of prose "the city to its suburbs and the hinterland." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Floozybackloves (talk • contribs) 19:26, 20 January 2020 (UTC)

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Improvement of the article

@Shadow of the Starlit Sky: Hi, okey, I agree with your assistance. I just think that this removed part of the sentence "... but it had few effect for the townspeople and residents of surrounding villages" was important because a small church/chapel in the Klaipėda Castle really had few effect for the population outside the castle. This duplication of content was caused by copyediting? I was surprised when I returned to insert additional reference and saw it. :D Please double-check before publishing edits. -- Pofka (talk) 17:07, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

@Pofka Oops... there was an edit conflict I had to resolve while copy editing. Maybe that caused the duplication. But I think that after rephrasing the sentence fragment to "it did not have as much effect for the townspeople, as well as the residents of surrounding villages" would be better. -- Shadow of the Starlit Sky 17:15, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

@Pofka Just added back that sentence with the new wording. -- Shadow of the Starlit Sky 17:23, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

@Shadow of the Starlit Sky: Thanks, part about cathedral was a bit messy as well (probably part of the text was lost in copyediting). What do you think about such addition? The cathedral was in Klaipėda only in 1290-1298, thus its lack of significance is also mentioned in the supporting reference. By the way, I think references should be kept sentence-by-sentence while copyediting as if additional content will be added/removed/modified in the future it could be quite difficult to WP:VERIFY content. -- Pofka (talk) 17:29, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

@Pofka Nice addition. Also, sentence-by-sentence refs sound like a great idea too. Because this article is quite lengthy we should make it easier for people to verify stuff like you said. -- Shadow of the Starlit Sky 17:34, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

I also am strongly in favour of sentence by sentence references because it is way too easy for the needed reference to just disappear if someone adds more material in between what used to be one paragraph or etc. It might seem to be an overkill at first, but as the article hopefully expands, everything really gets fleshed out and it saves time not having to come back to the same source twice to re-add something that could have been there from the start. Cukrakalnis (talk) 20:32, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

@Cukrakalnis @Pofka Expansion is important, of course, but I think that removal of text might be the best way to handle certain sections (here I am, being an Exclusionist as usual.....) I think that some sections of this article contain various amounts of puffery, cruft or other types of indiscriminate, unencyclopedic content. I just had to remove some copyvio, puffery and link spam from a couple of sections.

Also, this article has just way too many red links. Maybe we can fix a few of them/remove them as well.

-- Shadow of the Starlit Sky 02:37, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

@Shadow of the Starlit Sky: The structure of this article with bullets in some sections is really problematic, but hurrying to remove them would make further improvements even more complicated. For example, I think "Transportation" section is quite good, but it should be partly rewritten to have fluent texts in paragraphs. -- Pofka (talk) 17:15, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

@Pofka Sorry for not responding sooner; I've been busy with a lot of off-wiki matters lately. Yes, I do agree that the bulleted lists need fixing. But, for now I'm working on updating the "Climate" section with refs and new stats. I will certainly expand the sections with the bullet points in the future. -- Shadow of the Starlit Sky 17:43, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

@Shadow of the Starlit Sky: Hi, no problem, I'm busy at times too. Thanks for your edits in "Climate" section and elsewhere! -- Pofka (talk) 11:20, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

@Pofka You're welcome. I will continue improving the article and expanding "Climate" and cutting a bit of clutter in "Cityscape". -- Shadow of the Starlit Sky 02:33, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

"Klaǐpēda" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Klaǐpēda has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 September 11 § Klaǐpēda until a consensus is reached. #prodraxis ^connect 03:30, 11 September 2023 (UTC)